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Challenging Big Tech's (Choke)Hold on Our Lives Episode Transcript

00:00 - Nachi (Host)

Technology has become an integral part of our daily lives in this digital age. It has transformed how we communicate, work and entertain ourselves. However, as our reliance on technology grows, reflecting on its consequences on our physical wellbeing and social interactions is essential. In today's episode, we will dive deep into technology's impact on our society, the complex relationship between our physical and digital lives, and how to balance the two. Welcome to another episode of I'm Not Yelling, I'm Dominican, podcast hosted by Nachi and Damaris. Hey everyone, it's your girl, nachi, and I'm here with Damaris, your number one, harlem proper and our special guest is Mark Hurst.

00:53

He's the founder of Creative Good, a technology consulting firm with expertise in the impact of technology on society and the customer's experience. We're so happy to have you here, Mark welcome.

01:05 - Mark (Host)

Nachi, thank you so much, and thank you, Damaris. It's great to be here.

01:09 - Nachi (Host)

Yes. So, mark, you have such a great understanding of technology and human behavior and how, and worked with many companies across different industries, but you do so much more to bring awareness to the public, so do you want to share a little bit about yourself to our listeners?

01:28 - Mark (Host)

Sure, I've been working as a consultant for over 25 years through my company, creative Good. It's a New York based consulting firm, as you said, and what I do is I try to advise teams on how to make products and services better for customers and their families and their communities, because I think if you actually make things better for people, in the long run, that benefits the business as well as everybody else. In addition to the consulting, I have been writing an email newsletter which is just general interest about technology and its impacts on all of us, and that's also at CreativeGoodcom. That's a free email newsletter. It's one of the longest running email newsletters in the world. I've been writing it for over 25 years.

02:21 - Nachi (Host)

Oh, wow.

02:22 - Mark (Host)

Same newsletter and I also.

02:25 - Damaris (Host)

I always weren't emailed, as invented.

02:28 - Mark (Host)

Yes.

02:29 - Damaris (Host)

Well before that I was inscribing it on Stone Tablet.

02:33 - Mark (Host)

But believe me, it was a great day when they invented email. And I also host a weekly radio show at a independent, non-profit radio station which is based in Jersey City, across the river from New York. The station is called WFMU and on this radio show, which is called Techtonic, I interview authors and journalists and other thinkers and innovators to talk about how technology is affecting us. So I've been running that show for just over six years. I'm coming up soon on my 300th episode and that also gets rolled out as a podcast. So that's, if people look up Techtonic with Mark Hurst, t-e-c-h Tonic with Mark Hurst on any podcast platform, they can listen in and that's totally free, non-advertised, and I do that as a volunteer project.

03:33 - Damaris (Host)

Nice. Well, we're really excited to have you here and, as we were talking before the show started, I've attended your gel conferences and, as I shared with you already, they were amazing. It was inspirational and really was about helping to shift my mindset personally about how I approach customer service and the customer experience. But it wasn't like it was foreign to me in the sense that it made sense because I personally like to think that I move in integrity and so really to me, at the core of what you shared was always about integrity, right, how you, the respect for humanity, if you will, and that, to me, always came across. So I really I appreciate it. Thank you for that, thank you.

04:24 - Mark (Host)

I appreciate you saying that yeah, the gel conference was a series of events I ran from 2003 through 2016 in New York City. We had one event in Copenhagen, but otherwise all the events were in New York and I tried to spotlight a very diverse set of talent and creativity on stage from many different fields. All I think you stated it very well all with a theme of how do we, how do we create experiences that are actually good for people and not exploitative or deceptive, using slash and burn tactics, and I thought, if I could just get good, talented people on stage to model for everyone how we should be building products, services and experiences. Of course, the rest of the world will follow along, because it's all going to be one big happy family here pretty soon, pretty soon.

05:23 - Damaris (Host)

And then oh, you're so cute yeah.

05:25 - Mark (Host)

Buzz and I.

05:27 - Nachi (Host)

That's what Big Tech said Big Tech, big Tech.

05:31 - Damaris (Host)

With the villain laugh.

05:32 - Mark (Host)

Exactly. And then Big Tech happened. And now on my radio show I'm not saying naive things like that.

05:42 - Damaris (Host)

I'm often on my radio show I lose my ever loving mind and just start screaming into the mic about how bad things have gotten you just want to shake people off, I know, yeah, yeah, that's why we invited you on the show, because I think it aligns a lot with what we try to share with our listeners really about okay, how do you thrive in this world?

06:06

And for me, it really is about having control and agency over your life and living your best to your ability, right, like, how do you vibrate higher? And to me, we're so inundated with technology and its role in our lives and it's just like this. It just kind of feels like we're losing some power and some control over that and I wanted to get I want to get into that because that's, I think you share a very unique perspective and maybe it's not unique, I think, because Nachi and I kind of share it too. So I'd love to hear about how you feel the role of technology and how it plays into society now and what should it be doing, what role should it actually be playing?

06:54 - Mark (Host)

Yeah, that's a great opening question. The technology sector right now is the most powerful and wealthy sector of business in human history and collectively I usually call them big tech. These, depending on how you count the four or five or six big companies. Generally the five people talk about are Facebook, which recently rebranded to Meta, which I don't like saying the word Meta. Well, let's just call them Facebook. Amazon, Apple, Google, which tried to hide under their new moniker, Alphabet, but let's call them Google, yes, and Microsoft. Some people throw Netflix in there as well, although for a couple of reasons I don't usually lump Netflix in.

07:45

So if we just say Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Microsoft, those five occupy just their. I think I think four of them are trillion, over a trillion dollars. I think only Facebook is not quite a trillion dollar company and I think Apple is well over two trillion dollars. I mean, it's just the amount of wealth and influence that these companies have in the economy and our society and our culture. And not to mention other verticals education, healthcare, automotive, retail, media we could list them all out. All of them are central to the operation and development of all those areas of the economy and that filters into our individual lives and the lives of our families and the lives of our communities around the country and around the world, and my basic position in my writing and in my broadcasting is that it is wrong to have so much power and influence concentrated into so few hands.

09:03

And this is not unique to 2023 or big tech. I mean, if you go back through human history, whenever there is an outsized concentration of power into a very few hands, bad things happen, always. In fact, the whole reason this country was founded, and was founded with democratic principles, was to break the chokehold of concentration of power politically. So what are we doing here in this country that we have assigned, allowed so much power to be assigned to these companies in this very small set of senior leaders and investors? And we can talk about what's gone wrong, but I think that's the root of the power. The root of the problem is the concentration of power.

09:54

The other question you asked is what should technology be doing? I would say technology should be doing anything, but trying to grow its power. Base. Technology can be, and should be, a force for good in the world, Ever since we figured out how to cook meat over a fire and that allowed us to gain more complex types of nutrition to help in our development. From Paleolithic times, Technology has been something that has helped advance our lives healthcare, transportation, entertainment, education All those things have been immeasurably helped by technology. But I feel like in the last 10 or 15 years, this runaway train of big tech and its growth at any cost, concentration of power has started to dim the possibilities of technology, as the technology has been instrumented into a power grab rather than serving us and our communities for the good.

11:08 - Damaris (Host)

You know it's funny because I've always viewed tech as a means to make our lives more efficient, easier, freeing up our time, but also in doing that, it's kind of just increased our consumption right Of more information, of buying more stuff, and not really necessarily always making our lives easier or more efficient, it's like. Well, now I have to do something else to continue to support this. I don't know, that's just something that I've picked up on the way from where I used to how I used to view technology. But to your point of this concentration of power, it is daunting and it is a little scary sometimes when you think about it, how much connection there is between all of these companies too and the importance of our data with that.

12:04 - Nachi (Host)

I feel like a lot of our information is out there and now our privacy is a bigger issue than it was. I feel like in the past I can't count the number of times I probably received a letter saying, oh, there's been a breach. And I'm like, what? And the funny thing is I don't even remember either signing up or using a specific service. That might have been years before. And then I get this letter of there's been a breach in our system and your information is out and I'm like, oh crap. It's beyond stressful and overwhelming to even think about the amount of data that's out there and how it's being used and spread and shared with third parties. That's the scariest part for me. I know a lot of the times we sign up for things. We use these services online to make our lives easier and we don't read the terms of conditions?

13:16

We don't.

13:17 - Damaris (Host)

But also from a customer experience standpoint. You really expect me to read some 12 pages. If I'm signing up at this moment, it means that I want to take action within the next three minutes. I cannot read 12 pages within three minutes.

13:31 - Mark (Host)

It's like you know that you know that, I know that what are we doing here?

13:35 - Damaris (Host)

You know, but then it's you sign some part of your data way for convenience and that is, and what we're seeing now is that it's becoming a revenue big price that we're paying for that convenience to your point, nachi, because now our stuff is out there in the dark web. I'm constantly getting these credit alerts that and they're like your information may be on the dark web.

13:58 - Nachi (Host)

I'm like. What information? Can you tell me exactly what? What is the dark web?

14:09 - Damaris (Host)

And I think about when we talk about giving away our data and our privacy. I mean it's funny like Ancestrycom and 23andMe. I remember when that came out and I was just like I'm kind of curious. But right.

14:24

Guess what I feel right about those companies and at the same time, I'm thinking to myself I'm paying you to take my data and DNA and I'm paying you to do that. I'm not going to do this. That's like this doesn't add up. Fast forward, we have what is it? Ancestrycom being acquired by Blackstone, a real like a real estate company. I'm just like okay, something's not right, something in a milk thing.

14:55 - Mark (Host)

And just speaking of the hacks and breaches, who recently got hacked was 23andMe.

15:02 - Nachi (Host)

Oh really, oh my gosh.

15:05 - Mark (Host)

And I heard they sent out letters saying don't worry, please acquire for yourself a new DNA strand and everything will be fine. We would advise that you change your DNA, because your DNA has been hacked and you will be fine. You will be protected.

15:23 - Damaris (Host)

It's on the dark web.

15:25 - Mark (Host)

I love all these biometric scans. Amazon new Amazon stores want you to scan your palm yes, I've seen that, and I always think I can't wait for the palm data to be hacked. And then they send out a letter saying just get yourself a new palm, it'll be fine. And then they have facial recognition is a whole thing.

15:44

Just get yourself a new face. Your face data got hacked. Get a new face, get a new palm, get a new DNA. You're going to be fine. We made a billion dollars off of it, so we're fine. Everything's cool now.

15:56 - Nachi (Host)

Yeah, it's all under the guise of making life convenient for you. You don't have to stand on the grocery line for too long. Just scan your hand and go about your business.

16:08

Yeah, I saw that in one in Separk as I went into and I looked at it and I was like that's crazy, why would I use my palm? But I also use the face recognition on my phone. And now I'm thinking like OK, that was probably stupid, I probably don't need to do that, and Damaris had already told me. Like Damaris has a very old iPhone and we always get on her because of it, it's just like I don't need to use my face to open up my phone.

16:41 - Mark (Host)

Now we see who the truly technically superior sister actually was.

16:48 - Nachi (Host)

Yes, she's always sounding the alarm for the entire family.

16:54 - Mark (Host)

Yeah, I'm right there with you, Damaris. When I go to family gatherings, I'm always the life of the party that's going to get hacked. That's a terrible product. Don't ever do business with that company. And they're just like. Would you please, Can we?

17:10 - Nachi (Host)

live.

17:11 - Mark (Host)

Mark, can you turn it off for a second?

17:14 - Damaris (Host)

No, it's hard, you can't once. You know, you can't know.

17:18 - Nachi (Host)

That's it, yeah.

17:20 - Damaris (Host)

I have to share this with my family and friends, and this is why we have a podcast, because I want to share all of the things that. I know and I want you also to know Well.

17:28 - Mark (Host)

I mean this is an important point, all kidding aside, Damaris which is that the default that these companies want us to act on sign these terms and conditions, give us a, scan your palm, buy this iPhone, use the software all of those defaults are for the benefit of the companies, not for the benefit of you and your family. And there are alternatives out there that actually are kind of like old school companies that actually make good products, but they're small and they're sometimes hard to find, the ones that you see that ads on TV. You know, like I don't really watch a network TV, but I went home recently and they had a football game it was Thanksgiving, so they had a football game on Right and half of the commercials were big tech companies. I said, man, they're really all over the airwaves now. And so if and this is not to blame anybody, I mean people they figure these are friendly products, they seem like kind of interesting products. Why not use them?

18:38

But for people who know what's happening behind the scenes at these companies, the answer is almost always don't do it, Don't use it, Turn that off, Don't give them permission, Don't buy that product. No, no, no, no, no. And it sounds very negative, but that's the situation we're in right now, when, again, these very few companies have so much power that they're they're trying to exploit all of us with their products, and it's the job of people who know what's happening, Like both of you on this podcast, are trying to raise awareness of different ways of looking looking at these matters. It's really, it's important work, even though people may not want to hear it all the time.

19:24 - Damaris (Host)

I know, I know my family members. They indulge me, but they're just like we're going to keep doing what we have to do and that is quite all right. At least I did my part.

19:32

You do with it what you want with this information, because I know once I consume something, I just either have to share it or I make a change or not. But then it's my choice, right? Just thinking about 23 and me. When I was Looking that up, I forgot what I think this conversation triggered is. I was just doing some research and the Co-founder and I won't even pronounce the last name is the Polish last name, so I don't want to screw it up. I Read she was married to Sergey Brin, who's co-founder of Google.

20:07

I was just like oh my god, yes, yes, and Google actually. Of course, they invested in her company like the first round or whatever. It's a millions of dollars, and I was just like they they're now divorced, but that's irrelevant, because I'm sure throughout they're like how can we now connect Google and 23 me and I'm sure at some point we're gonna see that in the future of like, oh, here's how now your DNA is connected with all these Google products or alphabet products, whatever you know.

20:40 - Mark (Host)

Yeah, I think it's Wachiski. I'm not sure how to pronounce it, but I think it's. And which? Is yeah, yeah, I think but yeah, it's a very small world and it's it's not a it's not a huge coincidence that a genetic surveillance company is so closely linked to a digital surveillance company. Because here's the thing that we we haven't said the word surveillance yet in this conversation.

21:03

We have to say a word about this because you're both of your correctly bringing up the problems with having to give up your data and the threat of hacks and and breaches. But even even if the data is not hacked or breached, even if it's kept quote unquote safely within Google servers, it's still being exploited. There's a book that a Very important book that came out a few years ago called the age of surveillance capitalism, by a emeritus Harvard Harvard Business School professor named Shoshana Zuboff, who and she spoke about the book on tectonic. This book talks about the birth and the development of surveillance capitalism, which is the business model that Facebook, google, amazon and, to some extent, microsoft and Apple all rely on. But certainly Facebook, google and Amazon are that that idea of surveillance is central to their, to their businesses.

22:14

The idea is to get as much Data from from as intrusive surveillance as you possibly can can lay on to people. Get as much data about them, their bodies, their history, their families, their Relationships, their geography, their habits, their, their purchases, their media interests I mean at every kind of data about someone and their relationships and you build a Dossier, a surveillance dossier, on each individual that you never, ever will share with that individual and you use that dossier in order to Sell off slices of it to advertisers or any other third parties could be, could be government agencies, could be foreign governments that are especially interested to pay for access to your private data. And so the companies, over the last 10 years, have been trying to figure out how to expand the reach of their, of their surveillance gear. Now it used to be cookies. You know, started with cookies. So when you do a search on Google for Hawaiian vacation or something I don't know, then everywhere else you go on the web you keep getting these ads for Hawaiian vacations Because Google's surveillance is following you everywhere you went.

23:44

But that wasn't enough, because these companies need to keep growing and growing and growing. So then they came out with surveillance, physical surveillance devices. They had to somehow convince people and then 20 years ago this would have sounded like the stupidest sci-fi dystopia ever. The most powerful company in the world wants you to put its surveillance device on your kitchen counter so it can listen to your private conversations in your kitchen. I mean, people 20 years ago would say that is the dumbest plot note. That is so unrealistic. Who would ever? And now you. You see Google Home, amazon, echo, the Facebook. Everything Facebook does is surveillance based. Now Facebook has these surveillance glasses they want people to buy. That's in partnership with Ray Ban. That has two little cameras on the side so they can surveil what people are doing and saying within range of the of the glasses.

24:35

It's just proliferating everywhere. But all of that is in service of expanding their, the reach of their surveillance, so they can get more and more data on you, and that makes more money for them. Your as a, as a user or, let me say more accurately, as a citizen, you should have more power to Deny their access to your private data. But, as you say, as you correctly said to Marist, you get on a site and you have to use it. Let's say you have to use it to apply for a loan or apply for a job, or try to Get into school or get your child into school, and it says, okay, before, very quickly, very quickly, we're gonna, we're gonna Usher you into this wonderful wonderland of our website. But just one small thing. You just have to click that. You've read this, this deal with the devil here and don't don't worry about it. Just click and everybody, what are you gonna do? Details, do you? You don't you?

25:41

don't have time to read it. But even if you did, let's say there was a line in there that you objected to. How are you going to negotiate for a job? How are you going to negotiate with that company to take out that one? There is no negotiation. It is not a fair negotiation. It's an asymmetry of power. So your, your only two choices are to sign the deal with the devil or to absent yourself from that service completely and permanently. And If that's what's standing between you and a job or a school or healthcare, you're gonna click the box and and so that's why so many people are being surveilled, and they had no choice. This is, this is why it's.

26:25

This is absolutely not about blaming it. The only people I blame are the leaders in Silicon Valley who put this system together, but people on the receiving end. It is, it's not their fault. They had no choice. Occasionally, people have a choice of whether they want to leave the Amazon surveillance puck on their Kitchen counter, and I think they should. You know. I'll just say this what is it way about a pound or two about? Like this phone? You can chuck that thing so far into the Hudson River. It is so impressive to see a surveillance puck just arcing, arcing out to the West about halfway through you might even hit the New Jersey line lightweight.

27:07

Yes in fact the pucks. The pucks are flat on the bottom and if you spin them they'll skip. They'll skip several times.

27:17 - Damaris (Host)

I'm just saying what not she did some years ago. She actually had the audacity to give that to me and my husband.

27:28 - Nachi (Host)

I know I even Before anything else, and she had asked for an alarm clock, I'm like, oh, and I'm, you know, looking for a different alarm.

27:42 - Mark (Host)

This is perfect, you know yeah, Jeff Bezos himself is gonna wake you up to Maris Damaris.

27:49 - Nachi (Host)

I've been listening to you sleep.

27:50 - Mark (Host)

It's time to get up.

27:52 - Nachi (Host)

Something happened.

27:57 - Damaris (Host)

And then we're like wait a minute, this doesn't see, this is a feel right. I just listened to my intuition and I'm not gonna do it. I was just like this doesn't feel right. They're listening to everything.

28:07 - Mark (Host)

I'm listening to you sleep.

28:12 - Damaris (Host)

You only respond when I say Alexa, bullshit, you're listening to what I'm doing? Of course they.

28:17 - Mark (Host)

I mean, of course it has to listen to everything you say.

28:21 - Nachi (Host)

They don't only listen to Alexa, they have to listen all that.

28:24 - Mark (Host)

And then in the last couple years there have been these revelations coming out that Amazon and Google and Apple all these companies use third-party Contractors in low-cost countries, where there's low-cost labor, to listen in to selected snippets of those surveillance devices, purely for your convenience, you understand, purely to train the models, or, and then you have these whistleblowers that will post to their locals. So there was this, there was this expose in the Netherlands a few years ago there was a whistleblower who came out from I don't know somewhere like Macedonia or something, croatia, somewhere out there, and sent all of this audio data to this journalist in the Netherlands, and it was this is a family podcast. I'm not gonna list all the kinds of things that that person heard From those devices, but they hear everything they hear everything.

29:17 - Nachi (Host)

Oh, my gosh yeah.

29:19 - Mark (Host)

But hey, that's low cost labor.

29:23 - Nachi (Host)

I did not know, I just thought it was a great gift.

29:31 - Mark (Host)

Well, if you watch the commercials it's like yay, we got an Amazon Echo. Thanks, dad you know, we're gonna hey, and it shows the family hopping around and dancing to the tunes.

29:42 - Nachi (Host)

And.

29:42 - Mark (Host)

I'm sitting there looking at the TV like surveillance surveillance throw it out. Like I said, I'm real fun.

29:48 - Nachi (Host)

Yeah, you know, what catches you as a parrot is the. Oh, you could use it as an intercom if you have one in your you know, like you said, in kitchen and maybe in your kids room and you can kind of connect to it. I used to think that was so cool.

30:02 - Damaris (Host)

I'm like, oh yeah, that's great, Let me know and you try to pull me into the matrix, but I fought back, I fought back, thank you. Thank you, sister. I still love you. You're one of my favorite people in the world. So how do we take this power back though? For me? I say I as much as possible. I try to disconnect, disengage and delete data and apps where possible, but I I mean I personally don't feel like it's enough. I feel like I'm sure there's more to do. What do you recommend?

30:36 - Mark (Host)

Well, this is one where we can go to other areas of life or some ideas, and, as we were talking before we started recording, I did enjoy your recent episode on big food, the food industry or food in quotes, I guess, food product industry and that a lot of companies make a lot of money creating this stuff. That's terrible for your health, but is is designed to be addictive, so you keep eating and eating and eating.

31:07

And I thought you know there, there there are good parallels between how we should relate to food and how we should relate to our technology, because in both cases, you have these giant companies that are basically exploiting our weaknesses, whether they're physical or psychological, in order to make more money, and that leaves us worse off in our health, in our in our physical and mental health. So what, what should we do in both cases to live healthier lives and have a better relationship to food and technology, which are both in the modern world, which are both essentials? First, we can say there's no silver bullet, one size fits all solution. Everyone's different, everybody has different needs, but maybe we can say some things on a general level. One is just what you said, damaris, is to take an attitude of critical appraisal of the options in front of us. You said that you try to turn off the device when you can. You delete data, you delete apps you're not using. In other words, you're saying no, you're saying no, no, no, a lot, and I think that's a really good practice.

32:23

Also, in food, when you go through the grocery store I mean 80% of the grocery store you can just say, nope, not ingesting, that it's not, it's not healthy. But I think, on the other hand, we can also say that we're not shooting for perfection. It's too hard to say every single thing I eat, every single technology I use is going to be pristine in some way and there's going to be no linkage at all to these awful companies. It's hard to say that in this world Everything is kind of linked up together. So I think the best we can do is to take the steps that we're able to at the moment and not be too hard on ourselves. So if you, for example, I have this, I have this iPhone here. I don't love the iPhone, I don't love a lot of things that Apple does, but that's when your iPhone is.

33:20

Oh, which it's one without the facial recognition, I think it's so you got an eight, oh he has the SP?

33:27 - Damaris (Host)

Okay, but do you have the thumb? I do. I have the thumb, yep.

33:31 - Mark (Host)

And that's one that I also. Oh yeah, we're like 100 scanners.

33:36

And it was a compromise, because I know that using the thumb scanner habituates me to giving up my fingerprint, which is which is not good. But if I wanted to be totally pure, that would be getting rid of the iPhone and getting. There's a number of smartphones out there that don't use conflict minerals. They don't use any software proprietary software from Google or Apple. So they're out there, but I haven't done the work to make that move. On the other hand, I've gotten myself off of the major Google services. I don't use Google ever, if I can, if I can avoid it, things like that.

34:19

So everybody has to make their choices. Where are you going to disengage yourself and where do you still have to hold on to some compromises? But if we all take some action, the best we can, to say no to these awful companies, eventually the tide is going to start turning, and the very first step is what you are both doing and what I try to do on my show. The very first step is to raise people's awareness, just so they can make their own more informed choices, not us saying you have to do it, but just to say do you know that this is what these companies are doing?

35:04

Now you can make a better choice. If, then, you still decide you want to eat the Fritos, go forth.

35:12 - Damaris (Host)

Because, maybe you want to eat the Fritos. Consume red number 40. If that's what you're, no judgment because you're making.

35:21 - Mark (Host)

You're an adult, you get to make your own choices. This is not about a moral judgment, but at least you know. But what I want to do is I want to fight the company's monopoly of the messaging. I want there to be the other side, at least presented to people to say here's another way of looking at technology. Make your own choices to possibly do something other than what these companies want you to do, and over time I mean it could take a lifetime, but over time I think people eventually will start making better choices with technology.

36:04 - Damaris (Host)

I hope so too, and, to your point, that's absolutely what we try to share is. It is to raise awareness and also just so that people can make more informed decisions. But again, ultimately it's your choice, and I am one that I am resistant to authority. I just I want to control what I do, how I do it, when I do it, not because you told me to do it, so you know the fastest way. The way my husband likes to annoy me is he'll tell me what to do, as I'm about to do it already and I almost don't want to do it, and he knows it's a trigger, but I'm I just I know what you're trying to do.

36:46 - Nachi (Host)

You're like I'm going to annoy you.

36:49 - Damaris (Host)

He's like go to bed. And I'm already about to go to bed, so it's like okay whatever.

36:54

But you know, I say all that just because I don't want, yeah, I want people not to be overwhelmed, but just to be aware. And you know, I and I know this is one of those topics, similar to big food, where technology it's, it's a part of our lives, right? And how could we really avoid using it? And it's not about avoiding, you know, not using it, it's just about how we use it, being judicious about it, discerning. And so when I think about technology, I mean, is that is a? I don't want to feel like it's the only solution for societal problems, but maybe there's a way in which we can integrate it into our lives that it's much more balanced.

37:37

And I'll say that I was listening to one of your podcast episodes and it was with Coco Krumay, and she's the author of Optimal Illusions, and I forgot why I selected this one, and I was happy that I did, because it was in that conversation where her book focuses on the technology or not even technology companies, but just like industries in general their quest for optimization. And in doing so, when we reach for a solution that's to a very specific problem and frame that problem, we then actually don't find the solution. Inside that frame. It's actually it lies outside of that and it to me. It reminded me of how we're so specific with how we try to approach issues like issues with climate or world hunger or just things anything and we're so specific with certain things that we actually miss how to address it because it's outside and it's a matter of looking at these things holistically. Very much similar to Western medicine and you'll hear me throughout episodes speak about that where Western medicine is very much focused on the symptom versus what is the root cause, and this is very much like.

38:56

When I heard that conversation with her, I was like, yes, this is. You're absolutely right with the fact that we're so focused on the hype to optimization that we lose sight of what actually how we can actually address something Like. I think electric vehicles is a perfect example of that, where we don't even have the proper power grid to support electric vehicles, but we're now exploiting the minerals to create these batteries for electric vehicles and are causing a whole other set of societal problems in Congo and other places, and China's making these very same batteries for electric vehicles, using coal to produce them, and I'm just like, okay, this doesn't make sense if this is supposed to be for climate change, but instead of addressing our infrastructure. This is not sustainable. So you're causing more environmental problems, trying to create these electric vehicles when we don't even have an infrastructure to support them.

40:01 - Mark (Host)

Yeah, the problem of climate change and sustainability is another parallel track to what we're talking about with technology, even food. What actions should we take to live more sustainable lives? And man, that's a tough one in this growth at any cost.

40:22

Infinite growth economy, which is definitely not sustainable. Just the day we happened to be recording this, just last night, I aired an interview with a European journalist named Guillaume Petrone, who wrote a book about the environmental impacts of digital technology. Fascinating book talking about all of the minerals and metals that go into smartphones and chips and everything. All of the water that it takes to manufacture the devices, all the water it takes to cool the data centers where Amazon and Facebook and Google store all their surveillance data. The spread of data centers, the taxing of the electricity grid, the power grid. Do you know? In some countries I think it was Ireland the data centers, the Big Tech data centers these are data centers for American Big Tech companies take a sizable percentage of all of the power in the entire country are devoted to the data centers. Did you know that Worldwide, the power draw for digital is greater than that of aviation? 4% of our energy worldwide goes to digital. You should listen to that interview if you want to hear some nightmare scenario.

42:03

Iphone also will skip very nicely on the surface of the Hudson River. You can just kind of it's in the wrist, you just kind of flick it. You're going to want to throw your devices in the Hudson River because you think the economy and electric vehicles not sustainable. Totally correct. What about just the internet? Everybody used to think well, the internet is in the cloud.

42:28 - Damaris (Host)

There's no, the environmental. What's the cloud Servers? Right servers.

42:32 - Mark (Host)

And everything that you do has another server to get all the surveillance data off of it. So we're we are completely unsustainable. The root cause here is nothing that any of us individually can do anything about, but we have this societally. We have this flawed vision of infinite growth, and you cannot you cannot have a system of finite resources support an economy of infinite growth. It's just anybody. Anyone can see that. So I don't know what the. I think you know. This is the world that we have to live in. We have to choose our battles and do the best we can, but my attitude is generally to be skeptical of anything and everything that I hear from any of these companies, and my default is going to say no until once in a while, and I'd say, well, ok, maybe just this once, right?

43:32 - Damaris (Host)

And that's part of the reason also why I don't upgrade my phones. Why? Because you're just trying to push consumerism on me, because you want more. You want more of my money, but really do I need one? No, and I feel like those are the ways that we as individuals to, like you said, this is our way to fight back right. Those smaller knows can grow. So do you need that next iPhone, whatever 15, that's going to be out? No, you really don't. And think about those countries and those poor children Mining those that cobalt.

44:04

That's true, all that stuff is not just electric vehicles. You're right, that was already an issue with phones and computers and the like, but electric vehicles just exacerbated it even more.

44:15 - Mark (Host)

You're right. Nightmare, material Nightmares, all of us nightmares. Tonight We'll get through it Seriously.

44:23 - Nachi (Host)

But it makes you think about it right, because, like you said, mark, you don't realize that with all this growth, there's other things that's being impacted and when you start to kind of look at how it's affecting society as a whole, it makes you think twice before buying a new device or capturing any given away your information without having that knowledge base on what it's really being used for. And I hope that people will just take this information and start to think twice and maybe start enacting some of those knows I know for me. I'm here thinking like maybe I need to remove this facial recognition off of my phone.

45:13 - Damaris (Host)

All of my family members make fun of me. I mean, every time I go to a family event it's just like oh, you still got that iPhone 8? Yes, I love her. Yeah, she's great to me.

45:24 - Mark (Host)

You know what's if you want to show your family something fun. They say what's the matter with the facial wreck on an iPhone? Go and look up on the Apple website, their page on Face ID, which is their facial wreck system on the iPhone, and it says in a little print near the bottom of the page don't worry, the lasers that we shoot out at your eyes are not strong enough to do any retinal damage. I need to stop right now, don't worry the lasers.

45:58 - Nachi (Host)

Yes, please, no, stop it.

46:01 - Mark (Host)

Yes, let me I read that and I go oh, thank goodness that the lasers that you were shooting into my retina are not doing damage. Thank you, apple, that is so generous of you. Oh, my god, you feel so much better, right? I have a buddy. He's out in Michigan. He runs this company called Reflecticles, and these are anti-surveillance glasses that have lenses that block all the infrared and lasers and all the crazy stuff that they shoot into your eyes, so that you and they also work as sunglasses. I have a pair here at home. I mean, Damaris, you should wear those at the next family gathering.

46:43 - Damaris (Host)

Oh my god, yes, yes, absolutely. I'm so ready at the next, the July 4th get together. I'm going to walk in there with my face. They're like yeah.

46:55 - Mark (Host)

I never take these off. That's what's up. You're never going to shoot your lasers into my eyes.

47:00 - Damaris (Host)

You're never going to get me. No, I'm never going to get me.

47:03 - Mark (Host)

Also means, your phone will never recognize you.

47:08 - Damaris (Host)

I think there needs to be a balance right, and we've been talking about this and, I think, discussing how we can get there. Part of it is this idea of consumerism and kind of disconnecting the whole idea of status with what it is that you buy, because, again, is there a need for this stuff, for everything that you buy, and maybe, maybe not. And, to your point, nachi, it's about just being a little bit more judicious and critical for those things that you do and want to participate in. I mean, I personally like to take mandatory breaks. Go on, do not disturb. Things like to try to balance out what it is how I engage with technology and I just think everybody's journey has to be unique in their own. But, mark, you shared a lot of good stuff and I'm wondering is there anything else that you think people should consider as they try to balance out this world of digital and technology and their place in society with that?

48:12 - Mark (Host)

Well, just, I think it comes down to an attitude where people they take charge of their destiny. I don't know the right way to say it, but these devices want to tell us oh, just relax, go to sleep, we'll take care of it, we'll filter everything for you, we'll tell you what's important. And a better attitude is saying no, no, no, no. You don't understand. You're a phone. First of all, you don't talk to me. I don't want any talking phone. You're a piece of metal. You can miss me with all that I'm I. There was a meme somewhere. I've posted it a couple of times on my radio show playlist and it's this meme. You know, sometimes memes say crazy things and it's like this. It says something like I don't want to hear any speech from digital devices.

49:05 - Nachi (Host)

I am a divine being.

49:09 - Mark (Host)

You are not allowed to speak in my divine tongue.

49:14 - Nachi (Host)

And that's kind of how I feel.

49:16 - Mark (Host)

You know what? I'm the human being here? You're the hammer. The hammer can shut up right now. Ok.

49:24 - Nachi (Host)

Yes, stay in your lane.

49:26 - Mark (Host)

Yes, stay in your lane. When I have a nail, I'll let you know, right, but otherwise you stay on the workbench, and I really mean this. All of these tools, these companies are trying to get them to irrigate themselves to the status of person or even above. You hear weird religious, cultish stuff coming out of Silicon Valley. The AI is God.

49:52 - Nachi (Host)

Wait a second, god Wait a second. I know, I know that's real, that's bad.

49:57 - Mark (Host)

I studied computer science. There's no God in your little Python code, all right.

50:01 - Nachi (Host)

You guys can settle down a little bit.

50:04 - Mark (Host)

These phones they are tools and they can help from time to time, but our attitude has to be I will use the tool when it is time, but I am not ruled by the phone. This is the attitude that we should aspire to. I am not going to be ruled by this thing and if it tries, I'm going to turn off all the alerts, I'm going to delete all the unnecessary apps and I'm going to put this thing in a drawer somewhere until I'm ready to use it to reassert our leadership. As people, as divine beings, we are the ones who are going to chart our course in life, and the tools will take a distant third or fourth place that we will draw on in minute, occasional ways. I think that's the attitude I'm aspiring to get to, and it's hard, because that's exactly the opposite of what these trillion dollar companies want you to do.

51:08 - Nachi (Host)

Yeah, so, similar to Damaris, I also limit myself to certain use of apps or the phone itself. Like I put a do not disturb after a certain time. But I also think about my children and other children, where they have access to so much information out there and just the consumption. As adults, we know how to balance At least some of us do in terms of consuming what's out there, but children don't. I could tell my kids 20 million times you need to be off by such and such time, and one of the things that I do with them is that I limit their use of apps and their phone turns off right before they're supposed to get ready for bed.

52:03

Because they don't need to be on the phone. Yesterday, my daughter came to me. She's like can I get an extra 15 minutes? Nope, you cannot. You've had it all day long. I think you're good. So I think it's just doing stuff like that too, because, yeah, our children are going to have phones or, you know, ipads or other tablets. It's just what we've been doing right. But what can we do to just limit the use of that for our children? Because they're just consuming a lot and if I leave it up to my kids, they will be on it all through the night. I feel like we also have to think about that as well when we're dealing with children and the amount of what they're consuming on the internet.

52:52 - Mark (Host)

Yeah, that's another, that's a whole other category Kids the-.

52:59 - Damaris (Host)

I was gonna say, mark, we'll need to have you back for that, because I know I forward not to hear your last newsletter. I said so just, you know, prepare yourself Like yeah, you see his content, this is what he's about. Yeah, he's part of our tribe, he's there.

53:16 - Nachi (Host)

Yeah, it gets extra extra dark and no kidding at all how bad it gets when we talk about kids and this stuff.

53:25 - Mark (Host)

Yeah, that's. I'm happy to come back. That would be a whole other conversation. It's really it's very difficult. My wife and I have a teenage son and it's not reasonable to say you're never gonna use these services. On the other hand, these services are gateways to some of the absolute worst outcomes, and the leadership in Silicon Valley knows it and they continue investing in it. That's what is so horrifying, but we can get into that another time.

54:03 - Nachi (Host)

That's like another fear of mine. Yeah, when I just think about it.

54:07 - Damaris (Host)

Not at AI, which is yeah, but I know, I know. But I actually feel like we covered a lot, though in very foundational stuff, that I think can help a lot of folks out there with what it is that how they try to balance out their life and remind and remember that they are divine beings. We are we, you know. To your point, mark, I know you said it and it was funny, but we are human beings and I know I'm a highly favorite child of the most high, so I hope people consider themselves that way too.

54:40

But it's important to put that in perspective, right that you don't need to be controlled by anything. You control yourself, not a device technology, or it's you. So before we close out, mark, I would love for you to share again with where people can find you.

54:58 - Mark (Host)

Well, first I just want to say thanks to both of you, nachi and Damaris, for having me on.

55:03

I'm a fan of the show, and it's such a pleasure to talk with both of you. As for my own material, my email newsletter, which is free and non-advertised no surveillance is at creativegoodcom. That's all one word, creativegoodcom, and there's a sign up there on the homepage. That's the email newsletter I've been writing for 25 plus years now. My radio show has a website at tectonicfm that's T-E-C-H tonicfm. It's kind of like tectonic plates but with a H in the middle to make it tectonicfm plates, and that has the podcast link and the information anybody in the New York area wants to tune in to the FM version of it. And those are. I have some other stuff, but those are the two main things that I like to point people to.

56:01 - Damaris (Host)

Awesome, great. Well, thank you again for being a guest on our show. We are honored and we really appreciate it. You showed a lot of good stuff that I hope our listeners could take away and do some good with that.

56:16 - Mark (Host)

Thank you.

56:17 - Damaris (Host)

And so I just wanna you're welcome. So I just wanna close out with how we always do, and we remind our listeners that there's a lot of noise out there, but our message is consistent Stop getting distracted by the smoke and mirrors, tune out the noise and focus on your purpose in life, what it is that brings you joy in life. So focus on that and vibrate higher, and always. Thank you for listening. So, that said, don't forget to subscribe to our channel and follow us on Instagram, tiktok and Twitter at I'mnotyellingunderscore, and we look forward to talking next time. Bye.