Code-Switching: A Life Hack Episode Transcript
00:12 - Nachi (Host)
Welcome to another episode of I'm Not Yelling, I'm Dominican podcast, where we chat about life and solutions to vibe and hire. I'm Nachi and I'm here with my hitta, to my left and right, my homie and my beloved sister Damaris. We're two sisters raised in the Bronx, new York, by amazing Dominican parents and, like many first generation American born Dominicans and other Caribbeanites, we experience growing up in two separate cultures, which at times brought conflict when trying to adapt to American The Ti, but many other times, much pride in our roots. This podcast will explore barriers and challenges in life and look at alternatives to vibe hire in the face of these challenges. So grab your coffee seat or tea, sit back and let's vibe.
01:00
So have you ever found yourself having to change how you talk, dress or behave which goes against what you consider your usual self, to fit in or have to adjust to a few other people's perception because of your race or where you're from, where you're in the right place? Because on today's episode we're going to talk about double consciousness and code switching, and kick it up with our lovely guest and dope cousin, Jessica Matos of the The Tia Chronicles. Welcome, Jessica.
01:29 - Jess (Guest)
This is like it feels like a family reunion.
01:32 - Nachi (Host)
Yes, I love it. I love it, I love it Okay.
01:34 - Jess (Guest)
Thank you guys for having me,
01:36 - Nachi (Host)
Absolutely. So tell us a little bit about yourself. I mean, we know you guys, but we want our
01:43 - Jess (Guest)
No.
01:44 - Nachi (Host)
Yes, we want them to get to know you and learn about the The Tia Chronicles, which I love.
01:50 - Jess (Guest)
So go ahead, yes, yes. So, like I mentioned Jessica or Jess Matos, I'm a creative strategist and the founder and proud the of the Tia Chronicles LLC, and it's a space that is redefining what the modern day is. You can follow us on Instagram at the Tia Chronicles. You can also check out the podcast, the Tia Chronicles, on Spotify, apple, google, amazon, podcast. And it really is the baby of having a great, amazing childhood being raised by The Tia Tia like Matia Blanca, like Matia Antonia, matia Luisa, tia Niña, like just being around amazing Tia in my life and also bring a proud Tia myself. So it was a baby that was born by way of the pandemic, when I had nothing else to do, and also by way of a good friend of mine. Shout out to Marlise, who started a cohort for us to really start kick-starting certain businesses throughout the pandemic, and that's really what pushed me to like just finally do it. So, yeah, shout out to Tia Chronicles, shout out to all the Tia in the world and, yeah, praise God.
02:53 - Nachi (Host)
Yes, I love it. I love it. We're here for it, that's awesome, yes, so let's go ahead and kick it off Damaris, yeah yeah.
03:03 - Damaris (Host)
So I'm really excited to talk about this topic. I think there's especially and I think for us it's being black, also Dominican, from that ethnicity and cultural perspective, and then also being American, and so the idea of double consciousness and how it actually informs code switching. So for those, for those of you guys listening that are not that's not familiar with double consciousness, I became familiar with this concept in college. That was only like maybe two years ago, because I'm that young and it was a what am I right? Hate. It was in one of my African American Studies classes and we were covering the author W E B Du Bois and going over his book, the Souls of Black Folk, and in there was introduced that concept of double consciousness, which is kind of, broadly speaking, just the internal conflict experienced by being black and being American and looking at yourself through the lens of a white dominated society that looked upon black people in contempt. So you know pretty much what is it to be black and American at the same time, and so I think that absolutely obviously resonated with me as everyone of color in that class it resonated with, but I think it definitely informs and informs the whole idea of the code switching right, because I think, especially for me when I went into corporate America after college, it was that sense of, okay, do I show the authentic Damaris? Probably not. I might need to tame her a little bit because she's a little BX, she's a little Dominican, you know, it's just a little bit of everything and that might be too much for these people that are just not used to it, these people being a largely white corporate, you know company, so I was mindful about it and I was aware.
05:09
But it was also something that was just like look, this is part for the course. If I'm expected to be, you know, successful in this space, I'm going to have to play within this, you know, play nice if you will. So that's you know. That's how I kind of experienced that to a certain degree. But I'd love to hear from you, Jessica, because I don't. I no longer work in corporate America. I'm the boss of me now, which I love Praise God everybody so I don't have to deal with those kinds of pressures as much. But I know you and Nachi, that you know you're still working in a space where, yeah, you do have to be mindful, so, kind of you know, what's your experience in that For?
05:50 - Nachi (Host)
you.
05:51 - Jess (Guest)
Yeah, you know, I feel like, in a way, code switching is something that was passed down, like it was just something I knew I would have to do one day. So, my pretty man, my name is Alex, your guys' guys' sister. You know, I always tell people the story, like, you know, my sister was the blueprint because you know, she went to college. So I went to college. But I also know that you guys were the blueprint for her right. So it's kind of like the trickle down effect, like if you guys hadn't gone to college, she wouldn't have gone to college, I wouldn't have gone to college. And so we, just we did the thing that we, you know, was modeled in front of us, right? I'm grateful for that. So shout out to y'all for kicking it off.
06:22
And so I knew that I couldn't. You know, even when I lived in New York, I knew I couldn't bring the Bronx into the boardroom or into the office or whatever, and I was very clear that work was work and life was life. So you know, even in the earlier days of social media, if you worked with me, you wasn't following me, we probably weren't kicking it like that, because I just felt like church and state, there was no need for those things to mix and also, being from New York, I didn't need those things to mix. So it's like, well, I actually have friends.
06:49 - Damaris (Host)
That is my experience. I'm so glad you said that because I remember when I was first starting out like, yes, I absolutely treated it like church and state I compartmentalize. I also had hard boundaries with work period, meaning after five o'clock, 530,. I worked on the buy side of asset management. So once the market closed, we were done and I was done, I walked out that door. It was left there. Some people don't operate that way, I do, I still do. I did that. But to your point though, I remember just feeling like, yeah, I got friends and people's to see, so I'm good and I will show up to a work event. But at the same time I'm like, okay, I got, I got about an hour of my time, I'm here, I'm a team player.
07:35 - Nachi (Host)
Quote right, yes.
07:37 - Jess (Guest)
So I showed up and I showed up.
07:41 - Nachi (Host)
No, there's definitely a clear distinction between work, your work friends and your friends.
07:48 - Damaris (Host)
You know and how much you shared with them. And then I was like, okay, I got a, I got a party to go to with my friends. I mean, some of my bosses would always be like, wow, you always got something to do. I'm like, yeah, I grew up here. I don't know what to tell you guys. Yes, I had two beers with you. Leave me alone.
08:05 - Jess (Guest)
That should be enough, right? So the cold switching felt very easy when I lived in New York because it was like, all right, I clock in, I'm I'm this, and when I clock out, I'm myself right. And then, when I moved to LA in 2017, that's when I really felt like almost like a double need to cold switch, because it wasn't only cold switching from like to the comfort of white Americanism in corporate spaces, but also I wasn't around a lot of the black and non black POCs that I was used to being around in New York. So you know the concept that I'm black and speak Spanish that would like trip people out like, oh, like, you can do that. So that was, that was another piece of it, right. I remember one day I was at work in a team meeting and a friend of mine I had this thing too. I say there are people that are friends that I happen to work with, and then there are people that are legit just my coworker, this has to be a friend.
08:57
And she said to me after the meeting she was like yo, the Bronx kind of came out in that meeting and I was like, oh yeah, and what I was going to say? I mean what we said after, because we don't ride drinks. I was like because these people got me fucked up. And so no, you know what I'm saying, and I didn't say anything in the meeting that would have been deemed a professional or whatever. But you know we talk with our hands but the energy was there.
09:21
The energy was like if you want, the corporate smoke is available, right? That's very much what it was giving. And so I think now there's a there's a different shift of when we ask people to show up as they are authentic selves. Do we actually know what we're asking, right? I remember a colleague of mine had gotten let go and you know, the black man in advertising and marketing and some of the reasons why, or some of the conversation that came up, was like, you know, it was a little bit challenging for us to like connect with him and we would ask him to be vulnerable and like he wouldn't. And another black woman on the team was like do you even know what you're asking him as a black man? Like to be vulnerable in the workplace? For what? For you to use it against him later?
10:00
So I think there's a lot To get tabby weaponized 100% and we have to understand that corporate culture is a lot of them, sadly, are built around the white tech bro or the white finance bro or the white advertising bro. So, even as an American, there are things in certain corporate environments that don't apply the same way they apply to Timothy, because I'm not a white woman, I'm definitely not a white man, and so when we think about just apply the culture, we have to understand that the very real reality is the culture doesn't apply the same way to everyone.
10:31 - Damaris (Host)
So, now, absolutely no you bring up a good point just about when we're being asked to be authentic. Do you really know what you're asking? Because I will say, in my last corporate role, towards the end, it was just very difficult and I didn't find I was getting a lot of support. But I was being promoted and it was like, ok, but y'all are not supporting me at that level, so I'm not going to really succeed. And when I was being authentic to myself and I told my team that you are responsible for your own happiness, not this job, not your spouse, not your kids well, guess what? They were not ready for that.
11:10 - Jess (Guest)
They're like oh so you're not going to be the kumbaya boy. Yeah, yeah, and I was speaking to a group of your cohorts.
11:18 - Damaris (Host)
Millennials not saying all millennials are like that, but they weren't ready for the smoke that I was just telling them that you're responsible for this, not this company or anyone else. But yeah, and I was dinged for that hard.
11:31 - Jess (Guest)
And that's something that I think too sadly right Growing up, when I graduated college, 2009,. So it wasn't no jobs, it wasn't no nothing, it was debt and vibes right. And so eventually, when I get into corporate and all these things, the very reality is a lot of folks in my generation, though I mean hopefully now in our mid, going into our later 30s we're getting compensated the way we should be compensated and all those other things. But the reality is we were the generation that's like oh, you're going to pay me a beer and snacks, fuck it, I'll take it right Because that's what was available, or you're going to pay me in stock that may never actually pop off because this shit might go bankrupt.
12:05
So we were brainwashed in a way to really buy into. Like you're making a difference. And look at this great place you're at. And it takes someone who's very well-grounded to know how much of the Kool-Aid you have to pretend to drink to like fit in and fake the funk. And how much of it you're like yes, I'm going to have water, like this is not for me. And being secure within yourself, knowing that it's OK to feel that way and not have to just fake the funk 100% of the time. So yeah, sometimes at certain corporate spaces, especially in certain industries, it can feel like you're in a cult, but you're like no, this is my job, bro, and that should be enough. Like why do I have to make this my life? Why I got to wear swag. Like let me just clock in, clock out.
12:48 - Nachi (Host)
Ryan, let me just live my life. I can't do this, just keeping that separate. It is difficult, but I'm still in the corporate world and I very much keep it separate and I always have to. You know, it's funny when they start having the water cooler discussion. I'm always mindful of what I'm saying to anyone. I remember this one guy. He used to come to me they were doing like mass layoffs and he texted me and he was like this is a black dude and I don't really talk to him because he's like in a separate building and you know, and we're like maybe the only two black folks in the company. And so he's texting me. He says, hey, what you think about someone, so you know, asking us about how we feel about our supervisors Because we got this new HR person.
13:49 - Damaris (Host)
It's a trap, bruh.
13:51 - Nachi (Host)
Girl why I got to tell you that you don't know? Yeah, I was like I don't know. I know he interviewed me and I told him my piece and I'm good I'm not getting into that because you're not throwing me under the bus. I don't know you. Yes, we're both black, but I don't know you and I don't know how you're going to use that information.
14:07 - Jess (Guest)
Yes, and you bring up a good point, because I think there also have also been instances where, even in spaces where I've worked with a lot of black people or have had a lot of black people, either part of my team or the company or whatever, I've also experienced almost like the hazing by black and non-black POCs, right when it's like well, I went through it, so you got to go through it too, or like, and so sometimes the code switching and the white supremacy vibes meaning you're coming from your own people. One.
14:36
I think that a place of survival, and that's all they know. They're trying to just pass on what they know, which is the toxic shit. But then on the other side it's very much like well, I went through it, so you got to do it. This way too, you don't get to have the cheat code, and it is so unfortunate, because the goal should be always to have the next generation after you have it easier every single time.
14:56
As opposed to now. You got to go through it the hard way. So, yeah, you do have to assimilate and you do have to code switch and you do have to do all that other stuff. It's important.
15:05 - Nachi (Host)
And I love that you say that, because I recall when I do have people who start reporting to me in their black or a person of color and I'm like, don't come to my office, because I always have an open door right, because I'm like, yeah, I want you to talk to me, I want you to share with me what's going on, but we're going to keep it because that's how I am and I get that right. But I also am not going to feed into this gossipy type of discussion because, again, I don't know you, but I do want you to succeed. So I am going to share some tidbits. That's going to help you along the way, and I think that is very important and I think we always need that type of support, because it's not many of us in that field or in that arena where we can provide that type of support.
16:04
So there's a good point.
16:06 - Damaris (Host)
Yeah, it's funny that you bring that up about, even sometime the hazing within your own group, right. And when I first started out my first corporate job, one of the HR ladies that was interviewing me for the entry level role the thing is, I had already been working there as a temp, but in a different department, but I was interested in a particular role within marketing and I had the backing of a senior vice president, the office manager of my other department. They're like you could do whatever you want to me. I was, because you're amazing, I'm like I know. Thank you, so, yeah, so go to the HR.
16:46 - Nachi (Host)
I'm glad you know what I already know, right.
16:49 - Damaris (Host)
Go to have the HR meeting and it's being conducted by this black woman. She's not that much older than me, but whatever, right, I'm a little nervous because it is my first real interview for corporate role, my job out of college. And she, like, what was it that she? She started off with calling my prospective boss, described her as being a bitch, and I was just thrown off because I'm like is she talking to me that way because I'm black? And she's like you know you down, or is this a trap? So that threw me off my game? I'm not going to lie, and so I did really do great in that interview. So they didn't call me back. But the senior vice president of the department that I was in was like what's going on? Why haven't you heard back? I'm like I don't know.
17:37
His assistant, who was also the office manager, reached out to HR and she's like what's going on with Damaris offer? And the HR woman said well, she didn't do well in an interview. I don't think she's ready. Blah, blah, blah. She didn't answer the questions right, or something like that. And the woman who was the office manager, she was a black lady. She was like maybe you didn't ask the right questions, no, no, no, that's right when I say these people had my back, they had my back. You said what she said, Right, right.
18:11
I was like OK, thank you, thank you, sister, thank you because you knew my worth, you knew what I was bringing to the table and that just wasn't like me. But again I was tripped off. I was like, ok, fast forward, I got the job. I mean, the SVP told my new boss, who the HR woman called a bitch. He was like you're going to hire this woman. She's great. I was like OK.
18:32
And I was hired and it was history ever since. But what was funny was that that HR woman she was part of this group of black people that worked in my company that they would get together and have drinks and whatnot. But I wasn't included. But I knew about the events because my boy was in it and I knew I wasn't included because of her Right. So I was so much Shady, yeah. So my boyfriend would be like, oh yo, you want to come through, we're going to all come. I was like I don't need to. I got friends, I don't need to hang out with y'all. Like, first of all, I'm making friends with the right people in this company. If I'm going to do after work drinks, I might. I'd rather spend that time doing this, doing it with someone who's going to have a say in my progression here, because y'all are not my friends Now.
19:19 - Jess (Guest)
I was trying to.
19:20 - Damaris (Host)
Obviously yeah. I was like yeah, I called them the syndicate. I was like oh, you going to a syndicate?
19:25 - Jess (Guest)
Happy hour. But you know what it's funny? You mentioned that too, because a lot of big corporate companies have employee resource groups or business resource groups, right?
19:35 - Damaris (Host)
Wait, wait. This is before. That was the thing. There were no affinity groups back then, right Right, exactly.
19:39 - Jess (Guest)
It's like okay, that was the initiation of that Right, Right, and so those groups are great and there's a lot of reason why they exist and deserve to exist and not like as a social club we go out for drinks, no, like the actual business value, right to the business.
19:55
But there's also this misconception, I think, especially from non-black folks. Black folks, people, the whites, the clears, right, where it's like everybody, y'all all in the same group, so y'all all like the same shit, or y'all all the same or have the same interests, and it's like no, that's not how it's like within any population of people. Yeah, we have a shorthand in a very specific way, but there's a lot that's different. You know someone from Miami, boston, chicago, texas, new York, I like, like , it's different. Simply being black does not mean that we're going to necessarily be kicking it all the time or get along or agree or, you know, insert black for Asian, latino and any other you know racial, ethnic group, and that really, I think, sometimes blows white people's minds because they're like but you guys are all the same and it's like, but we're not a monolith.
20:46 - Nachi (Host)
And that's what I don't ever want to understand.
20:48 - Jess (Guest)
I don't want to do the work to understand that there's nuance and richness and the tapestry of our cultures, because you just want to be able to say, yeah, off it into this box because it's going to make your life easier. I have to dig it into the diversity within the diversity. You know what I mean, Like yeah, yeah.
21:03 - Damaris (Host)
Yeah, that kind of leads me to what do you think are some of the impacts of code switching, both positive and negative, Because I feel like there's certain things to that right.
21:12 - Jess (Guest)
Yeah, so in my role right now, I have to speak Spanish most of the day. I'm based in Mexico City and I have, you know, stakeholder partners in, actually in Mexico, like you know. I see them in the office. I can have stakeholder partners in Colombia, argentina, brazil even. And what I noticed and it's not something that I'm always super cautious of it just happens depending on who I'm talking to. If their accent is a bit more Mexican, that comes out when I'm speaking to them in Spanish, or if they're Colombian, then I'm like it's almost like I'm trying to copy them.
21:42
Yeah and not like in a disrespectful way. It's just a way of making fun. It's just what naturally comes out, because I also know that if I were to just start speaking Spanish, dominican Spanish, no one would understand me at work, like no one, right, right.
21:58 - Damaris (Host)
You know we cut off SSR TZL.
22:01 - Jess (Guest)
It's very different, right? So on the one hand, it works for me and I'm putting this in an air post because I think there's a comfort and a trust there with my stakeholder partners. They're like okay, like you know, I hear often, you speak Spanish so well, which I think is really. It's actually not a compliment, it's like telling someone they speak English so well.
22:18 - Damaris (Host)
It's like yeah, You're so articulate, right.
22:20 - Jess (Guest)
Right.
22:21 - Nachi (Host)
Where did you learn how to speak Spanish? I can speak Spanish.
22:25 - Jess (Guest)
I remember not too long ago I text Chachi and I was like it was. He was so sick of me. I was like was Spanish our first language? She's like duh, stupid. Yes, it was, but the reason I asked was because as a kid we weren't in ESL, right. So I always think of, like you know, when you learn, let's say you, spanish as your first language when you go to school, it's kind of like you automatically in ESL. I was like we did have that. She's like yeah, because we just we didn't really have a choice.
22:51 - Nachi (Host)
She really was like duh, she's like why are you even asking me? She's like that's the question next.
22:57 - Damaris (Host)
They are stupid questions. You just asked one.
23:00 - Jess (Guest)
Right, she's like, hmm, she's like honestly, like, are you adopted or what? What's going on here? All that to say. There is that level of trust, right, that I'm able to build with folks, et cetera. It's also good for me because, you know, if I want to move about the cabin in other countries in Latin America, you know there is something nice to be able to kind of like lean it and flex vocabulary. That was a big thing for me, like just certain words that I'm like I don't even know how to say this in the corporate setting or whatever. With English I've found more and more I've gotten more comfortable with not feeling like I have to code switches as strictly as I used to. So, like sometimes in email I'd be like you know, thanks everyone for The Tia over the brief Talk to y'all, you know, at noon, right?
23:41
y'all but before you know, 24 year old, just would have been like you all, so that might seem really small, but that's a time for me to get comfortable right. Or you know, sometimes in an email or a Slack I'll be like LMK. Let me know, right as opposed to, and granted, I also appreciate that I'm in an industry where I can do that right Like if I work in finance probably not.
24:03 - Nachi (Host)
I'll work with older people.
24:05 - Jess (Guest)
I'll work with older people. Lmk what 100%, so that also helps. They're like ML Kent. They're like why are you making this political? Like I just want to set a meeting.
24:16 - Damaris (Host)
What does Martin Luther King have to do with this?
24:19 - Jess (Guest)
Correct. So all I have to say, the practice of code switching has helped me, because I've been able to advance in my career for one way or another and then, on the flip side, I've just gotten more comfortable of like, this is what. Like there's sometimes where I have to send feedback and I'm like guys, it's been a really long day. I'm The Tia this in English because, like, I can't Like the gymnastics of my brain and I work.
24:39
Yeah, you can Sorry, right. So I think it's the longer you spend in corporate America, be it in various companies whatever, the more comfortable you also get with like I know who the fuck I am and like I'm not, you know, a junior associate that, just you know, graduated college five minutes ago.
24:56
Like also, like put some respect on me and so it hasn't felt as like shocking in that sense. But there were definitely years where I was like you all and you know Grammarly and I mean I'll check right, cause I don't want them to think I'm stupid.
25:08 - Damaris (Host)
No, it's so true because you you're fighting against the perception or stereotypes that they may have and the thing is you don't want to reinforce that right, like for me, it was toning down the way I spoke to people, meaning while being direct but being corporate directing, you know what that's like right so saying something that's like diplomatic but at the same way firm, because you don't want to be a weak woman but being black, then I might look aggressive, angry black woman. So I'm, like you know, trying to straddle the fence and it wasn't. Sometimes it was easy, sometimes it was. It was just downright annoying because I would see straight up men and some white women in my office be aggressive as fuck and get away with it in a way that I know I could not.
25:57
I know I could not on any level. Now, working for myself, I'm like I don't give a fuck. I will tell you the way I want to tell you and I'll still deliver it with love, you know right.
26:09 - Jess (Guest)
I just also feel like you're going to be very direct about it. And that's the thing. Like directness is not a bad thing.
26:16 - Nachi (Host)
No, but it's made for us, yeah, yeah, it's made for us to feel like it's. You know, we're being aggressive when we're being direct and I think it's harder for black women to to be out there and constantly, because that's like a third, like what they said, the third consciousness of not only are you dealing with being black, and having a triple consciousness, right, right, right.
26:43
But now you have to deal with the patriarchy of how things are done and dealing with that, and then you have to always kind of be that submissive. You know woman to deal with, you know, with whatever that they throw at you. You know you can't be aggressive because you like that, like you said, that angry black woman, and I think I struggled with that because my eyes was like I'm emotional.
27:12 - Jess (Guest)
Like.
27:12 - Nachi (Host)
I mean, I like to flip shit over.
27:13 - Jess (Guest)
What was that? Yes, do you know your big three. You both know your big three. All right, real quick, real quick, cause I just now, I need to know Now, cause you just get emotional. I was like, oh, I wonder, yes, Leo son, virgo rising and Capricorn moon.
27:30 - Nachi (Host)
Yes, Gemini, Gemini son, Leo rising and Capricorn moon Nice.
27:39 - Jess (Guest)
Both of you are having the same mood. Yes, yes, yes, wow, wow. And then the last one was Torus moon, which is so funny. Cause chat team my sister is a tourist and my rise, my rising, is Scorpio, so that's how I'm always on 10. Cause it's just too much. It's actually too fucking much, always, Always. So I can relate to the emotional piece. Like there's always means that be like you know I would. I would be a lot scarier if I would just stop crying every time I got mad, Right.
28:13 - Nachi (Host)
Is this like I'm so angry right now?
28:16 - Damaris (Host)
Oh, my God y'all are like the same.
28:18 - Jess (Guest)
I'm crying because I want to punch you. Yes, yes.
28:22 - Nachi (Host)
I just want to drop, kick you right this very minute.
28:27 - Damaris (Host)
No, no, it's so true. Yeah, no, it's funny, so like for me though that wasn't depleting for me. It sounds like Fnachi might have been a little depleting, and I get that. Yeah, no, it's. Uh. But one thing I did want to say that I kind of forgot, but I it was some meme that was going around on Instagram that was so funny to me and it resonated with me so much. It was like Like this voiceover, that was like y'all always ask me, add me on Facebook, add me on Facebook. And he's like I'm damn near gangsta, I can't add you on Facebook. That's how I felt when people would. At that time Facebook wasn't that big, you know, but it would be like no, I'm damn near gangsta. I can't say like, look, I'm busy trying to go to the club Monday night because those are the best nights in New York City, sunday through Thursday, like Don't have friends to tag you, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna need to approve it because it's so funny.
29:30 - Jess (Guest)
I was at The Tia last night with a friend who's in town. She's working in the van and she lives in Chicago. She's from New York but she lives in Chicago. Now we were talking about, you know, just going out and she's asking me, like so, what's like your week, like here, stuff like that. And I literally I mentioned do the marriage. I was like yo. When I was younger I had a have another cousin who she put me on like I was like before I could even like go out anywhere. She put me on to the fact that what you do is you go out during the week and then your weekends are for you. And I remember like then, eventually, when I was old enough to go out and go out and you know was fucking broke I would go out during the week because I was what all the free shit was around to, right. So, yeah, you go to the places and you avoid the bridge and tunnel crowd. And yes, gosh, yeah, I mentioned you because I was like you know.
30:13 - Damaris (Host)
You know I don't even remember telling you that, but I'm glad that I imparted that wisdom on you. Like I feel good Mission accomplished. You know, back to kind of like when we're talking about the impacts of code switching the question to is should you have to right? And I personally feel like I Think to a certain degree there's really no choice in this to survive or to be successful in corporate America, it's not changed that much like yes, there are some changes I think you mentioned, like the affinity groups and also when you have a certain level of experience and seniority, you know you could demand and command a certain amount of things. But I Think to just be like no, I don't have to do this. Yeah, you kind of have to to, you know, to just get through and survive and also just be successful, because that's just kind of the way it is to some degree. But you know, I don't know like yeah, look, I think there's also.
31:15 - Jess (Guest)
I Say this often I'm like everyone sells their soul a little bit when they get up in the morning and go work for someone else Like we, like we, we all are willing to sacrifice some part of ourselves for a fucking check Right, whatever that price is is personal, but we all are willing to do some level of that. So, even if you're not code switching in your accent, in your dialect, in a language You're likely buying into the corporate culture, at least pretending to write your adding exclamation points at the end of your email to make sure people don't, you know, are happy after reading your email. Or You're saying, I think, instead of just saying what it is you need to say, or your I'm so sorry to bother you, what, like you know? So so, even if it's not code switching in the way that, like the origins of that term, you know, I've come to exist, yeah, you're not ever really fully showing up as you, because then you wouldn't have a fucking job like I think that's something that a lot of people don't want to like. Admit.
32:12 - Damaris (Host)
Do you really want me to write?
32:14 - Jess (Guest)
Yeah, I don't think you do so I think that there's always gonna be that, that part where you're gonna have to give in a little bit.
32:21 - Damaris (Host)
Yeah so what do you then think about? And this is for everybody, you know how do you ease the distress of code switching. If there is distress and I think to some degree there's some levels of distress, like for me I was able to compartmentalize. So and I also while, yes, I had to dial myself myself back, I think, because I had very clear boundaries in the workplace. They also knew who I was. So like when I went on vacation, I was very clear do not contact me because I will not follow up, I will not reach out to you. This is my personal time. Personal time is sacred. So I, because I established some of that, I think you know that was authentic to me, but it was I a hundred percent. Now, you know I was probably like 70 or something, but for me, compartmentalizing, understanding, having the clear boundaries, helped me to ease any depletion that I may have from, you know, not being able to really have an outlet. What about for you guys?
33:15 - Nachi (Host)
I Know well.
33:18 - Jess (Guest)
For me, I'm like a dying to hear. I'm like.
33:22 - Nachi (Host)
For me, I, you know, I also separated, you know, my my life at work and my home life, right, because it was just two different things and I'm not gonna, you know, bring things from work to home. But one thing I Know that I've always done I always had like one person that was my home girl, right, and Whenever some shit would go left, that was who I would go to. Sometimes I even called the marriage, I would, I would leave my office, called the marriage, and I can't believe what this bitch done said to me, because I have to let it out, because you know, like I said, I'm very emotional and I, I, I would want to go off, you know, and sometimes and sometimes it's okay to Let them know that you're upset about something, like I remember one time, oh my goodness, my, my direct supervisor. He was a man and he was fairly new to the company, and Because I've been with them for so long, I kind of do my own thing right, I Know what I'm doing, I don't need Anyone telling I?
34:48
don't know what to do. I know what to do, I know my job. So we have this new project and I was just like inundated with so many different things and His boss, which is my second-line supervisor, sent me an email saying, hey, I need something, like she said. I'm gonna say she sent it like four o'clock in the afternoon. I Need X, y and Z by this meeting tomorrow at nine o'clock. Number one I'm in the middle of doing something like I was in a meeting. I get off at five because I have kids that I have to go pick up, so it can't get done. I'm not gonna do it at home because I'm busy with my kids and my time, you know. Morning I get to work at nine o'clock.
35:32
Right so you're like I don't get it.
35:34 - Jess (Guest)
How is the math gonna math here? Because yeah math doesn't become an emergency.
35:39 - Nachi (Host)
So you're just not gonna get it. So let me tell you how. She called a meeting in his office, called me in there and she took that opportunity, I guess, to try to teach him how to supervise, and said you know well, I asked you to do something for me yesterday and I needed it for this morning, and you didn't. You didn't reply to my email. Yeah, yeah, not politely, you know, told that. Listen, I Was in a meeting when you sent that that email. I had to go home and you needed that. Nine o'clock in the morning, I don't get to work until nine, so I'm sorry that you didn't get it in time. My apologies, I was just like really busy. So she, she wants to tell me oh well, next time please just let me know. And this my super brother. He just sitting there looking. So I'm fuming inside. I'm fuming because I really wanted to go off, because I wanted to say you know me, we've worked together for a very long time, right? So you?
36:50
trying to make an example of me and I don't like that. But all right, she laughed and the next day I went to his office and I said to him I close the door, nice, don't you ever? I was like, let me explain something to you. That whole conversation yesterday I did not like because, as much as I work for you all bend over backwards and for her to come and say, oh, this one mistake that I did, that I couldn't get to her what she needed in her time. I mean, girlfriend, you The Tia me this email at the end of the day.
37:31 - Jess (Guest)
You must not have even wanted it.
37:33 - Nachi (Host)
Right, that's it. Your emergency is not my urgency, so don't come at me.
37:40 - Jess (Guest)
Also, she saw you did reply. I don't know how about you do it yourself if you needed that bad.
37:45 - Damaris (Host)
Thank you Call me crazy, call me crazy, thank you.
37:48 - Nachi (Host)
So I had to set him straight because I'm like you, my supervisor, I don't understand why that whole connection right there had to even happen and so. But I had to let it out because I was like I said, I was fuming and I knew that if I let it just fester I was going to blow up and it wasn't going to be good. So I had to let it out. But it's OK, it's OK to say you have to kind of step back and take a moment and then, ok, let me revisit this so that I can, so that what I need to say comes out direct but not hostile, because I wasn't hostile towards him, I was just like that's just, I work too hard for y'all to be treated in this manner.
38:40
It's just that's not going to work for me at all. So I feel like you just have to be able to like you mentioned the way we write emails, like with the I think, or I'm sorry to be bothering you, or even when you go into someone's office and you say, oh, I'm sorry to be bothering you, Do you have a minute? Kind of cut that out.
39:02 - Jess (Guest)
Cut that out of your language.
39:04 - Nachi (Host)
Cut it out of your language and then it's OK to be direct. You just need to do it, because then they'll start to take you a little bit more seriously and you start feeling more confident in how you manage and navigate that world, because now you're saying what you want to say without this, you know. Oh, I'm sorry to bother you, or can you do me this little favor?
39:36 - Jess (Guest)
Yeah, everything's so tiptoeing.
39:38 - Damaris (Host)
Yes, you're working on next shows, and that's probably what some people like in some of the articles that I was reading, like in a Harvard Business Review and this, I think yes, I forget this other site that I was reading up on Code Switching, it was like for some people it can be very depleting, to the point where they're just like either depressed because it's like you spend so much time at work, and especially if you're feeling like you can't even be you and you're trying to conform to this person that doesn't resonate with you, then, yeah, it's going to be a hard experience and for me, that just had me thinking again what you just described in that she's having clear boundaries and being confident in your voice and being as authentic as you possibly can, of course, without it getting to the point where it impacts your role, but at the same time, maybe it's about finding the right company with the right company culture.
40:33 - Nachi (Host)
Right.
40:34 - Damaris (Host)
Take initiative and if it doesn't work for you, then leave. Like you are not beholden to any one company. We have freedom of choice. Some people just don't like that. They have a choice and like to rather play them. I can't, you know, at the world's terrible, and I'm the victim.
40:53 - Jess (Guest)
I'm just saying you know, yeah, and I think part of it, at least for me how I got to this moment where I'm like fuck. It is that I no longer attribute my value as a human being to my work. Work is one of the many things that I do. Work is not who I am, so like respectfully, I posted on their Instagram. I was like whether you think I'm the villain of the hero, you're right. I can't control how people. You know what I'm saying, like of course.
41:20 - Nachi (Host)
Nor do I want to try.
41:23 - Damaris (Host)
It is not my business what you think of me.
41:26 - Jess (Guest)
That is your business, not my business that is your business and so you know, I think, especially as first gen kids, sometimes that societal, familial pressure right, because you're the one who made it, you're the one who went to college Sometimes that keeps us stuck, you know, to not try the thing that we really want to try, or move jobs or whatever. And I think, little by little, more and more that folks are shedding that right.
41:47
Because that's a very intense burden to put on humans. Right, but legit. Your value is not attributed to your output, and I know that a lot of that and I don't have any academic tools, but in my mind I'm like, I feel like a lot of that shit does stem from slavery. Right, like your value was based on your output, right, and so we.
42:08 - Nachi (Host)
How hard do you work?
42:10 - Jess (Guest)
And that's the thing it's like. Why do I have to work hard?
42:13 - Damaris (Host)
Like no, thank you. Like like Work smart work smart.
42:16 - Jess (Guest)
I was texting my best friend the other day and I was like yo sometimes. Honestly, I don't think I might answer this while I was dreaming, Because I don't think they was dreaming of this. I don't really know, bro, I can't, I can't. I might have to say something Because, like, what is your?
42:31 - Damaris (Host)
wildest dream. She's like I'm calling a meeting, I'm calling a meeting.
42:36 - Jess (Guest)
Like I have questions.
42:40 - Damaris (Host)
Calling a meeting. No, I love it. I mean yeah. And then it's also, like you know, if join the affinity groups, if you feel like the need to Like again. I think there are more resources now than there were before and I just want people to know that, look, this shouldn't be something that depletes you so much that you just, like you, hate your existence. But if you get to that point, then it's probably time to reassess and recalibrate about what you're doing in life, right?
43:06 - Jess (Guest)
And quit that fucking job. That's it, because you will get another one. You will get another one. It's capitalism. You will get another job.
43:11 - Damaris (Host)
I promise no totally, and I sort of won Maris.
43:15 - Nachi (Host)
you remember when I used to cry when I would go to that?
43:19 - Damaris (Host)
No, this girl. She worked at a hospital for short stint at some patient, you know relationship person. And she will cry almost every day before going to work and cry about it afterwards Like it got to sometimes. I would be like let me pretend to be asleep, because I don't want to hear her complaining about this job.
43:39 - Nachi (Host)
I'm tired, girl Gosh, it was so terrible. No, no, it was a lie, but it's just to your point, Like if you're not happy, if you're crying every day.
43:54 - Jess (Guest)
Like I just you know, I feel like what was our ancestor's dream was to not be crying at work every day, and I was like I think that at least that piece of like all right, can you be OK, like not cry every day, like this is too much, oh my god, it's too much.
44:08 - Nachi (Host)
It's way too much. And the funny thing is like I still talk to my boss at that job.
44:14 - Damaris (Host)
She's a wonderful lady, but yeah, this place wasn't about code, switching it because it was largely black.
44:20 - Nachi (Host)
It was just a terrible work culture. Sadly, ooh, my people.
44:26 - Damaris (Host)
Hospitals are not easy. And yeah, rass, yes, rass, yes, no Up in a hood.
44:33 - Nachi (Host)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
44:35 - Damaris (Host)
Not easy, not easy. But, no, this has been a really great conversation. I mean, there's so much to unpack here in general, right, but we'd be here for like three hours. But I love talking to my cousins, my family. I love you so much, Jessica, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, no, thank you both.
44:54 - Jess (Guest)
This is great and you know again it's like free yourselves of the skin that you got to stay at that job.
45:01 - Damaris (Host)
Yes, come on, preach, say it again Loud and for the people in the back as people.
45:06 - Jess (Guest)
Some people say life is too short. I say life is too long to be doing shit.
45:09 - Nachi (Host)
You don't want to Come on now.
45:12 - Jess (Guest)
We come from some really good genes, you know, like my, my house. At that time she was like what? 99 or something.
45:18 - Nachi (Host)
Yeah, my grandma's 96.
45:20 - Damaris (Host)
Like come on. We live long, we live too long here. She's just getting good stuff. We can't suffer. We can't be crying at work every day.
45:29 - Jess (Guest)
I'm not crying at work every day Like enough, enough is enough actually.
45:34 - Damaris (Host)
But remind us again before we leave. Remind us all the places we can find you.
45:39 - Jess (Guest)
Yes, absolutely so. You can find me on Instagram at the Tia Chronicles. You can also find the podcast on Spotify, apple Music, google Podcast and Amazon Podcast. Yeah, follow all the good things Again. Shout out to all the Tia in the world when we live without our amazing Tia, come on and the joy to be a Tia whether you're a mom who's also a Tia, or like moi, without any kids, pets, man, nothing but just out here living life Like it's such a beautiful role that we are blessed to have in our communities and our culture. So shout out to Tia.
46:12 - Damaris (Host)
Absolutely, absolutely, and thank you guys for listening, and don't forget to subscribe to our channel and follow us on Instagram, Tiktok and Twitter at I'mnotyelling underscore. Thank you, everyone. Peace out.