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Protecting Kids from Social Media: Challenges, Strategies, and Grassroots Solutions Episode Transcript

00:00 - Mark (Guest)

It's hard enough for us as adults. How hard is it going to be for someone with a developing brain to think? Well, now I need to be thoughtful and I need to outsmart all these psychologists at Facebook or Instagram or TikTok in order to use this judiciously.

00:24 - Nachi (Host)

Welcome to another episode of I'm Not Yellin I'm Dominican podcast hosted by Nachi and Damaris. Hey, fam, it's your girl, nachi, and I'm here with.

00:33 - Damaris (Host)

Damaris, your lovable BX honey badger.

00:38 - Nachi (Host)

Not a honey badger. Oh my gosh.

00:43 - Damaris (Host)

Because I don't give a shit.

00:44 - Nachi (Host)

That we all know that. We all know that we all know we also have hanging out with us Mark Hurst of Tectonic Radio Show and, if you all remember, he was on with us when we talked about big tech, specifically around privacy and how it impacts our daily lives, and we touched a little bit on how it impacts children and we thought that was such, it was much, it was a bigger topic for us to cover more than just a few minutes, and so we had to have Mark back with us to talk about how this impacts our youth and what are some tips that we can do as parents to mitigate some of these risks that are out there. So welcome, mark, thank you, nachi.

01:31 - Mark (Guest)

Thanks, damaris, it's great to be back. I really enjoyed our previous conversation and what a pleasure to be back on the show.

01:38 - Damaris (Host)

Yeah, it was actually one of our top downloaded shows Top 10 though you know You're creeping up, You're getting closer to top five, but top 10 is great because it was a season two episode as well and it was again for us.

01:54

We're always about trying to bring awareness to our community of things that people probably don't consider in their day-to-day lives, and technology as a whole has a huge impact and influence in what we do and how we engage, interact and think, and so when you think about how it affects us as adults, you can only imagine how it can impact the lives of the younger people in our lives, the little humans, and we want to.

02:28

As our jobs as adults and guardians and parents, I feel like it's on us to ensure that we protect and provide a safe space for our kids and not expect or at least understand that external forces and factors don't necessarily have that in mind for your children, and we should be aware of that. So how do we go about protecting them? And so it's not true she, she teed up the conversation, but really excited to have it with you because you on your show, tectonic you, you explore a lot about the big tech companies and their massive influence and impact in the negative light, because we typically always see the good things right, like oh, this is how technology is improving our lives and blah blah blah. But that's also a way to just keep us with blinders on and not really understand. Well, with that benefit comes a lot more that you've. You probably didn't bargain for.

03:29 - Mark (Guest)

That's right.

03:31 - Damaris (Host)

And so you know we want to talk about what you, how, you see, especially when we think about big tech, the social media platforms within that space that have negatively impacted children and especially the mental health of children. Because I know what was it last year, in 2023, where the Surgeon General, they released a social media advisory study about the potential. You know they always put potential because they want to put qualifiers the potential harm of social media on children. I'm going to remove the qualifier.

04:06 - Nachi (Host)

Right Don't be too, scared.

04:08 - Damaris (Host)

It's a harm, it's no bueno, guys. So can you speak a little bit about that, sure.

04:14 - Mark (Guest)

Well, I'll start with that, that advisory. This came from the US Surgeon General, vivek Murthy, back in spring of 2022. So a couple of years ago, and whatever they were seeing a couple of years ago you can just extrapolate that is at least as bad probably worse now in 2024. There was a Senate hearing on mental health issues due to adolescent social media use. Most of what we're going to be talking about is social media not all, but there was a Senate hearing on this and there's this NYU professor named Jonathan Haidt who has written some books on this. His most recent book is called the Anxious Generation. So he's at NYU, he's written the Anxious Generation and back in 2022, he gave Senate testimony that had the following title that he gave his testimony Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a major contributing cause.

05:32

He talked about the link between the social media services and quote adolescent mood disorders, self-harm and suicide rates, and he said to the Senate that and again, this is a direct quote the United States is experiencing a catastrophic wave of mood disorders, anxiety and depression and related behaviors, self-harm and suicide. The crisis is so severe that the US Surgeon General, vivek Murthy, recently issued an advisory on youth mental health. So this is an issue that, as of a couple of years ago, had risen to the top of the national discourse, at least in the political arena, getting the kind of attention that would tee up an advisory from the US Surgeon General. So, yes, this is an urgent problem no-transcript.

06:44

Everything's gravy guys, but yeah, please please, let's get back to talking up the, the latest iphone model and the latest um new feature on instagram or whatever, because they're just oh they're just wonderful.

06:57

Um, don't, don't listen to the surgeon general, let's listen to the, the, the marketing and the advertising that we get from big tech. No, this is, you're right. We often hear all of the promises and the claims of this is going to change the world, it's going to improve your life so much, it's going to make everything so easy. What these companies obviously never talk about is the documented harms of those same products.

07:24 - Damaris (Host)

Right, at what cost?

07:25 - Nachi (Host)

Yeah, and I think for you know, when you think about it for yourself as an adult, how it affects you. You can only imagine how it's affecting younger. You know children and younger adults because their frontal lobe is not even completely developed and here you are consistently I mean they're consistently watching these images on social media that's promoting risky behaviors, that they're not able to process. That and I know, like for my kids, they want to be on every single thing and I'm always asking what do you need to be on that? For You're on X, y and Z.

08:10 - Mark (Guest)

So, what are you getting out?

08:11 - Nachi (Host)

of this other social media platform that you don't already have on the one that you're currently on. So it's crazy. As a parent, it's difficult and challenging.

08:25 - Mark (Guest)

It's difficult for parents. Like you're saying, I'm a parent as well and I've talked to a lot of parents. I mean I feel like we're all in the same boat. The other, they're thinking don't you understand? All of my friends, all of them are using this, this this and this, and if I'm the only one to step out, then where does that leave me?

08:57 - Damaris (Host)

That means you're not a lemming. Congratulations, that's fantastic. I know Well, we don't want to be lemmings in life, but I agree with you. They don't want to be lemmings in life, but I agree with you they don't receive that and I just had to say.

09:06 - Nachi (Host)

I just had to say yeah yeah, no, but it reminds me when my my daughter, when she wanted a phone and I think she was 12 at the time and I said no, I cannot, I don't see a reason what justification? Right, because I take you everywhere. I'm'm there with you, I know.

09:25

I see no reason, but I remember her always just wanting a phone and I waited until she was 13 to get her one, because at that time I was leaving her at certain activities, you know, for sports and other stuff. But I just remember that conversation so clearly where she just, you know she, kept saying well, everybody else have a phone, my friends have a phone, and here I have just this little iPod.

09:53 - Damaris (Host)

From what you know, what I read in some of the articles about, and the surge in general warning, these mental or rather the impact, the negative impact, has been things around, like you know, anxiety and, as you mentioned, Mark, depression, and I also feel like it contributes to body dysmorphia, especially for girls, who may already start to.

10:17

You know you're going through puberty, your body's changing, and for boys and girls, but I think for I can speak for for girls how that can feel during that time in your life and I don't see how following especially many people that you don't even know personally really helps your mental state and like really good about yourself, and I also think it contributes to a lack of awareness. I was listening to an episode that you recommended, Mark, on your show with these young people, these teenagers that started the club of members of the Luddite club in New York City, and they talk about how when people are just on their phones, they're not paying attention, they're just walking, bumping into people and that lack of awareness is just mind boggling to me because I remember, and actually you know, growing up in New York City at the time that we did, when we were teenagers it was in the nineties New York City was definitely not nice.

11:18 - Nachi (Host)

Not nice you have to be always aware.

11:22 - Damaris (Host)

Yes, yes, and so the idea of like my head is just down. And even now, I think it's ridiculous that you would still be so consumed on your phone on a New York City street, because you should always be aware of your surroundings, and for us it was more so about safety and how our father raises and ingrained in us you need to be aware of everything that's happening around you. We're young ladies. He's like be aware. Here's a little weapon, but this is why we are the way we are right, right, but what?

11:58 - Mark (Guest)

was it damaris? Was it a taser? Can you reveal it was?

12:02 - Damaris (Host)

like it was like little sprays I had like a concoction I swear.

12:06 - Nachi (Host)

It was like yeah, yeah, it was like a spray, like I don't know what it was Sprayed in their eyes.

12:11 - Damaris (Host)

He said, sprayed in their eyes and run away. We're like, okay, yes, poppy.

12:14 - Nachi (Host)

Whatever you say, oh my gosh.

12:28 - Damaris (Host)

We would not get through detector at schools today. No, I mean, but the thing is we went to catholic high school so they didn't have metal detectors anyway. But uh, we were getting on the trains and on the buses, so we were ready but yeah I mean.

12:35

May god rest his soul. Uh, look, I'm happy for the way I am right now, but then I think back. Well, one of the things that one of your guests on that show mentioned maybe it might've been Jameson they said about the. It helped them to get off their phone because it allowed it. It allowed them to be more present in their life. Right, being on their phone was a very passive way of living because you're always looking down, you're always scrolling, you're not doing anything active, whereas if you don't have that device in front of you or as Mark would call it, your surveillance device, that surveillance device then you actually become more present. And I think that's that is the. That's, to me, one of the negative impacts of, like this whole social media and and being on your phone all the time is because you're you're not, you're not present.

13:29

Yeah, that's right and it then contributes to all these other mental anxiety and you know disorders where you could alleviate that if you just got rid of that shit. But I know it's not that simple, but I think there are ways to go about it. But then you know, I want to be fair and balanced to some degree. What are positive things from social media for children?

13:56 - Mark (Guest)

Well, there are some cases in which young people can connect with each other in healthy ways. It's not like every single direct message is this awful thing, making them feel bad about themselves. There have been some studies somewhat countering Jonathan Haidt's research, saying not all social media is bad, not all device usage is bad, not all screen time is bad, but you have to use it judiciously and thoughtfully. And really those studies, they're trying to counter what Haidt was saying, but I think they come around to the same message, which is you have to use it differently from how these services want you to use them.

14:43 - Nachi (Host)

Yes, because, damaris, they want you to use them?

14:45 - Mark (Guest)

Yes, because, damaris, they want you to be passive. Yes, they want you to sit there and scroll and scroll, because that's Non-stop, non-stop because that's how they make money.

14:54

So they have this metric of engagement or time on device and they want to just maximize that. So they have teams of psychologists who put in these little manipulations in the interface, by the way, that were borrowed from research into slot machines. Slot machine design was really the first area of interface design to keep people engaged. The first area of interface design to keep people engaged. There's a great book called Addiction by Design by someone named Natasha Dow Scholl. She spoke at my JAL conference years ago about that book and it's still relevant today how slot machine designers really were trying to exploit their users. I thought at the time, years ago, what an awful way to spend your career as a designer trying to exploit people.

15:47

And then it all exploded into the entire social media ecosystem and even beyond. So when you say how can we use social media for good, I mean first thing you can do is get off social media. I mean first thing you can do is get off social media and I mean that's a great way, that's a great usage If you want to moderate, that you know. Still use it, but use it thoughtfully and use it judiciously. Well, how are you going to do that Again?

16:24

you have to resist all those manipulations that have been put into the system and, as Nachi, as you've said a couple of times, it's hard enough for us as adults. How hard is it going to be for someone with a developing brain to think? Well, now I need to be thoughtful and I need to outsmart all these psychologists at Facebook or Instagram or TikTok in order to use this judiciously so I can get some genuinely good outcomes. It's unlikely to happen and I think that's why these young members of the Luddite Club you were bringing up, damaris, they're well aware, they've done the reading, they're well aware of the research, research they have chosen.

17:08

Out of the panoply of options for how to react to this exploitative technology, they've chosen to get off it completely. That's their way of creating good outcomes. So, rather than saying constantly, let me wrestle with TikTok and set a timer and only look at good videos and send a nice text to my and, like all these rules that you're going to self-impose to somehow resist the bad effects, just throw the whole freaking thing away and say I'm going to read a print book. Or, as one of the members told me, I've taken up reading, sewing, sculpting, drawing, painting and free classes because the many, many hours week that that she's no longer on social media has opened up all this time for her to learn all these other things. And then she gets socialization thrown in because she's, you know, drawing with friends or taking a class with friends right, and so you get all of the good outcomes and none of the bad outcomes.

18:05

I think that's eventually, if people really dig in. They find that's the best way out of this.

18:13 - Nachi (Host)

Right, I think people forget that real engagement that you get from face-to-face interaction and being able and I actually enjoyed when they had said that they picked up other hobbies, and I was. I was impressed because I, you know, kind of going back to my kids, especially my daughter, both of them, really I would say, why don't you find something else that's more enjoyable? Let's you know, pick a hobby. Let's you know, you, my, my daughter specifically, she loves art. She always enjoyed it.

18:47

But when you try to push her to just hey, why don't you focus on that, then you know, looking at your phone and being on or trying to do the latest tiktok dance, why don't you she's like lame right do more of the artwork that you used to love doing? What's going on with that? So I, I loved, I loved hearing how they just it automatically was, they were drawn to it because, hey, I had, I have all this free time, I'm not on my phone, so what else can I do? I'm reading more and I'm taking sewing. This is something that I was doing before and now that I have more time, I'm going to continue doing that and do more of it. So I, I love that positive effect of removing technology and they've said that too. Yeah, I mean, I think it needs to be a balance.

19:45

Right.

19:46 - Damaris (Host)

Because it's kind of hard to be completely inseparable in today's society, like today's day and age. You really can't. But I'd like to just going back to the tech companies. I really want to understand how are they benefiting from specifically targeting children, because I think that's going to really open up the eyes for parents and understanding how insidious these big tech companies really are out there and how they're targeting your children specifically.

20:20 - Mark (Guest)

Yeah, okay, well, let's let's talk numbers first. This comes from a Pew research study from last December. This is a teens social media and technology 2023 research report. So this is this is their most current report on teen usage. As of that report, you know, a percentage of American teens have or have access to a smartphone or, as I would say, a surveillance phone it's 95 percent.

20:51 - Nachi (Host)

Oh, I believe that 95 percent.

20:52 - Mark (Guest)

Now that does not count. Flip phones Flip phones, you know you can still text, you can still call. That's not flip phones. Surveillance phones iPhones and Android surveillance phones Flip phones, you know you can still text, you can still call. That's not flip phones. Surveillance phones iPhones and Android surveillance phones 95%. And then they're using those phones. We call them phones, but of course they're not using them for phone calls, because phone calls are, you know the real-time interaction. So you know they're using them largely for apps.

21:18

And so what are the apps that the teenagers are using? There are. There's one that's the dominant app, both for boys and girls, because there are some differences by gender, but for both boys and girls, the number one app is YouTube. Nine out of 10 teenagers say they use YouTube. That's as Pew says. It's the most widely used platform, measured in the survey. And then, after YouTube, the next three.

21:46

There's three other really big ones, and that is Instagram, snapchat and TikTok. And so you've got teens from 13 to 17,. 63% use TikTok. If you go to 15 to 17 year olds, that's 70% of American teenagers are on TikTok. That's just staggering. And then Snapchat is a little bit less and Instagram is a little bit less. So now we can talk about, oh, and let me talk about the gender differences For teenage girls, they're somewhat more likely to use TikTok and Snapchat than the boys, whereas Instagram and YouTube are about the same between boys and girls. So that means there's something on TikTok and Snapchat that's really attracting and holding the attention of girls. So now we get to the business model, youtube. All four of these YouTube, tiktok, snapchat, instagram all have the same business model, and that's advertising. Well, I should say advertising and surveillance, which then feeds back into the advertising.

23:02

That's a whole other conversation, because they need to understand Our previous conversation on the podcast was about how these companies destroy your privacy for profit.

23:14 - Damaris (Host)

Yes.

23:14 - Mark (Guest)

And so there is that, but for right now let's just call it advertising. And so there is that, but for right now let's just call it advertising. So YouTube, for example. I'm sure you've seen ads pop up on YouTube. The more videos you watch, the videos are a lot shorter and the navigation is a lot more I guess bare bones, because all you're doing is swiping to get the next video. But there's ad revenue in there as well. That correlates to the number of videos and the amount of time you're spending on the app. So the entire business model of these companies is predicated on getting people to not put down the phone and it's not like. Well, we need to come up with high quality content that's well written, has a positive message, nicely edited.

24:14 - Damaris (Host)

Like our podcast. Yes exactly.

24:17 - Mark (Guest)

It's not that. It's not the high-quality content, the content that keeps people glued to their phone. The addictive content tends to be in the broad scale of things. It tends to be the content that's harmful in some way. It could be deceptive, it could be anxiety-producing, it could be amplifying hate, it could be incitements to violence. It tends to be. It's just, for whatever reason, the way the human brain is wired to tend to serve up things that keep people so glued to their phones that it resembles addiction. And some people say it is addiction and addictive content, much like if you look at addictive substances that people ingest. The addictive substances are the ones that are not good for you. There are no really healthy addictions, no.

25:23 - Damaris (Host)

No one's addicted to quinoa Right.

25:26 - Mark (Guest)

Hey, have you worked on your quinoa addiction? Have you stopped eating so much spinach? I'm concerned about your broccoli intake. No, it's the bad stuff, and so the algorithm. It's not like these companies necessarily set out to do bad things, although people may question that in the character of Mark Zuckerberg. But moving on from that, it's more that the designers of the algorithms wrote these, created these services in order to elevate whatever content would keep the eyeballs glued to the screen, and they let it go. And so that's how we end up with this system, with addictive devices that are making the companies tons and tons of money and are inevitably creating these horrible externalities, these negative health effects on these teenage users. That's how the whole system works. It's by design, it's not an accident.

26:27 - Damaris (Host)

And you have a really good blog article on your Creative Goods site that asks are Facebook and Google criminal enterprises?

26:37 - Mark (Guest)

Yeah, that was one of my favorites from a few years ago.

26:39 - Damaris (Host)

Yeah, yeah, it was from like, yeah, 2021, I think, or 2022., but it's still relevant, right, and as I was reading it, it's just again like I need to highlight these things because it's so important. But what you found is that these platforms are pushing, like you mentioned, ads for things like illicit drugs. Like I think there was something, there was an article it connected to an article, maybe on CNN or some other platform that it only takes two clicks to act to get in touch with a drug dealer, right?

27:17 - Nachi (Host)

Like two.

27:18 - Damaris (Host)

T illegal drugs. Yeah, but they keep putting these ads up and they don't do anything to take them down, because they make money, as you've already mentioned Mark.

27:30

More engagement means more money for the big tech companies, so there is no incentive for them to not do that. Only when they're called to task by the government or law enforcement do they actually say oh, I didn't realize we were doing this and we're going to scramble, we're going to take this down. And then what I'm finding is that when the noise settles, it gets quieter, they go back out. It's still there, right, it's just okay. No one's saying anything right now, so let's just remain under the radar. But they're. They're promoting things that connect to human trafficking, illicit drug use, like I mentioned, fentanyl, like it's just so many things. And of course, you're not monitoring every single thing, every page that your child is coming across. But you also can't even control that, because it's all being driven by an algorithm. So the more they engage, the more they know like oh, okay, we'll keep pushing this to these kids. And again, impressionable minds.

28:31

I think about the stupid shit we got into and we didn't even have these devices in high school, but I think that grateful we didn't die, we didn't get caught up in something stupid, but going to you know people's homes with your friend because your friend is like come on, let's go check this out. We could have been an after school special so many times.

28:52 - Nachi (Host)

So many times. Oh my gosh.

28:55 - Damaris (Host)

Yeah, and so now I'm like it's so all you need to do is click two times to be an after school special. This is just too much.

29:05 - Mark (Guest)

You were this close to Charlie Brown walking out at the end and saying to learn what Damaris did wrong, go to your local library. I'm conflating two different after school specials.

29:17 - Nachi (Host)

I know, I know Look.

29:20 - Damaris (Host)

How do we know what you're talking about? Yeah, if you know, you know whatever. If you don't, just let it go.

29:25 - Mark (Guest)

What was it?

29:25 - Damaris (Host)

The more you know, the more you know, right, with the little, burst the little starburst.

29:31 - Nachi (Host)

Oh my God.

29:32 - Damaris (Host)

So, and I think I'm just wondering how are they getting away with targeting children Like why?

29:42 - Mark (Guest)

That's an excellent question. How are they getting away with it? I mean that old column, our Facebook and Google criminal enterprises question mark. I mean the thrust of the column was you know, if it looks like a duck and it walks like a duck?

29:57

and it quacks like a duck. Draw your own conclusions, but here are companies that are enabling the largest illegal drug marketplace in the history of the world and not in choose some other country Right here in the US of A. These are American countries and there have been congressional hearings with parents of children who went on to Facebook Marketplace or found an ad on Instagram or wherever. They see an ad for an opioid that they want to try one hit of and they buy it very easily. There's Facebook and these other companies don't take these down, as you said. It comes in the mail and, of course, the whole thing in order for the supplier to cut costs. It's cut with fentanyl, which is an incredibly dangerous drug. I mean any more than just a little bit, is a lethal dose and the kid takes one pill dead and the parents go and it's and he was a good kid and so on and, like you said, teenagers they experiment with things, they, they, they do.

31:09 - Damaris (Host)

They're still developing.

31:10 - Mark (Guest)

They're developing, they do dumb things, but now these services, which are the most powerful companies in the world, are enabling this kind of tragedy to happen. The parents come to Capitol Hill, they give this heartbreaking testimony of what happened at the hands of these unethical tech giants, and the tech giants go oh, we're sorry, we will endeavor to redouble our efforts, and then it just goes back to business as usual.

31:45

So then you go, all right. Well then we need regulation. Okay, let me ask you this how are both of you feeling about our regulatory environment after last week? I mean, do you think we're headed into a golden age of responsible governmenting in the US of A? Have we ever? But I'm not feeling so hopeful about that.

32:17

And so you've got trillion, two trillion and now three trillion dollar companies that are that are controlling unilaterally, controlling the interactions between kids and their friends, between kids and their parents, between kids and their teachers, between kids and the rest of their lives. And the companies say we're here for growth at any cost, profit at any cost. The only thing we hate is bad PR. So if there's one little blow up, we'll play whack-a-mole and we'll make that one go away, but otherwise keep the profit engine going. And the government? I mean, I guess there have been some members of Congress who have tried valiantly to do something about this. David Cicilline, who's no longer in the House of Representatives from Rhode Island, was a great example. There have been some. But after years of attempts to rein in the tech giants, you tell me how are we doing? And now the owner of the service that used to be called Twitter is now hanging out with the president-elect and I think all bets are off. So when we talked about this show ahead of time, you said let's make sure that we talk about solutions.

33:41

Well before last Tuesday, maybe one solution in small techs might have been a remote possibility of some meaningful regulations against these tech giants. Now, in this new age that we're headed into, I'd go ahead and cross that off. A miracle could occur and I'd be delighted, but I think that we just have to be prepared for the government not to be working to oppose these giants, but instead to be hand in hand with them. And in that case, if that unfortunate outcome turns out to be reality, then what's our next step? And all I can think is we have to band together as families, as clubs, as communities, little groups of people, not individuals. We have to work together, little groups of people who are saying we're going to support each other as we, together, say no to these big tech giants. And a great example is that Luddite Club. Keep in mind it's important to notice these teenagers who are in the studio. None of them are operating alone. It's too difficult to go alone to yeet yourself out of your social circle.

34:57

They create their own community and they're not being judgmental of others. They're doing exactly right. They're welcoming if people want to join. They're not judgmental if people don't want to join. But this is what they're doing. It's a really nice community. That's our solution here is to have conversations within our families, within our friend circles, within our communities whatever you could have a spiritual community or a civic community have conversations and say, hey, how about we take a stand against these awful Californian and Washington state giants that want to harm us and our kids and let's do something different? What are some things we can hold each other to? That's our next step, I think, at least for the next four years.

35:44 - Damaris (Host)

Yeah, I agree. I also think my question too was around okay, so how are they getting away with this, and are there laws to prevent this? And it's not so much because I always view the government as having the solution to everything, because if anyone listens to the show regularly, they know how I feel about the government.

36:09 - Mark (Guest)

Yay, government, I know you guys.

36:12 - Damaris (Host)

I love the government CIA. We're friends.

36:18 - Mark (Guest)

Fbi, great people, cia since you're listening and taking a transcript of this, it's going to be sent to your data center in Utah. We love what you're doing.

36:28 - Damaris (Host)

I love three-letter agencies.

36:30 - Mark (Guest)

Keep up the great work.

36:34 - Damaris (Host)

No, so I'm not discouraged by recent results of this election, you know, because it wasn't an election, but simply because I find that we've had years as a government to do something. We've had studies already, you know, shared and surgeon general advisories, and we are still not well, rather, the government still hasn't done much of anything to make significant change, significant change. So I do think at this point and I think it's probably been more obvious probably in the last two years, with the lack of movement on the government side and our elected officials it's that, look, this is going to be incumbent upon the people and, to your point, the community. And this is why, again, why Nachi and I have this podcast to share with our community and to get them to understand. Okay, this is what's really happening, because we get caught up in our day to day. You may not realize like your children are under attack. I'm not even joking, it's, it's, it's facts. They're under attack, but you can do something about it.

38:01

We have choices in life and and again, this doesn't. This comes from a place of love and not judgment, because everyone is dealing with their own thing and figuring out how to work with their kids. But this we have to. We can't rely on anyone else to help, to help else, to help us with what's going on, because big tech is going to do what big tech wants to do and as long as they're providing they're sponsoring these politicians, because they're sponsoring them when they give them these contributions. So guess what? They got lobbyists. We don't have lobbyists as a regular person, but our lobbying is our voice and my platform are the people that are our listeners. We're here for you.

38:47

I'm not too sad because I do feel like, especially after listening to your episode with the Luddite Club and those young people, there are a lot of people that are coming to that realization of self-actualization, really taking the time to be present and one of the things that one of the young members mentioned around not having that device and not being on their surveillance device. It really forced them to be with themselves and just to sit with themselves Right and then think about, okay, what do they want to do? And and not like, oh, what do I want to do in five, 10 years? It's like, what do I want to do today? That requires physical activity, and so I'm hopeful and I think, as long as we keep having these conversations and actively doing things and we can get into these tips, but there is something that I want to go back upon.

39:41

This, mark, is the idea that, especially YouTube, it's a well, primarily YouTube but it is a safe haven for pedophiles, and I don't say that lightly, but I'm being serious in the fact that the way they advertise and the way the algorithm is presented, they are creating a space for them to target children in a way that's really dangerous, and so I'd love to hear your thoughts about what you've learned about that and what you're aware of. As far as what you're aware of, as far as yeah, this.

40:34 - Mark (Guest)

This came from a Senate hearing. I'd have to look up the year, maybe 2021. And I wrote a column, an outraged column, called Google profits from pedophiles and the. The problem that was brought up in in some questioning in the questioning in the Senate hearing room was about the YouTube recommendation algorithm, and so, just to make sure all the listeners understand, youtube is owned by Google, so the YouTube recommendation algorithm is making Google money. Basically, this is the algorithm that decides what's going to come next up on the autoplay and, even if autoplay is turned off, what are the recommended videos down the right side of the screen when the video you're watching finishes up.

41:30

And what researchers found? This was a story in the New York Times, if I remember right. What the researchers found is that when parents would upload to YouTube a brief video of their time at the beach, for example, and their kids you know, like their nine-year-old daughter in a bathing suit is shown for a few seconds frolicking the waves, this is a video that they would post. Maybe they would show it to a couple of other family members here. Here we are at the beach Suddenly. It would get thousands and thousands of views and they couldn't figure out why their home video was getting so many views so quickly.

42:12

The answer is that the recommendation algorithm, the YouTube recommendation algorithm, would find these videos with kids in bathing suits and it would send them as recommended videos to these guys that, through their activity, had been shown to watch that kind of video, in other words, pedophiles. So the YouTube recommendation and let me make it clear, no one said that YouTube engineers wrote in something to enable pedophiles. There was nothing like that. It was just an outcome, a natural outcome, of this optimization for engagement. So anything that would get a certain user to keep watching is going to get sent to them, and I think Google's position is look, we can't police every single type of video and who it gets sent to. There's like a bajillion bajillion videos, videos, and my answer would be well, this is a problem with your human-free, moderation-free system of sending any kind of information to any kind of person and then profiting from that.

43:26 - Damaris (Host)

Growth at any cost right.

43:28 - Mark (Guest)

Growth at any cost. That's exactly the same thing that is behind this growth in the illegal drug. Exactly the same thing that is behind this growth and the illegal drug market on these social media services. Again, it's not like they said you're the VP of illegal drugs, go grow the market. It was just they wrote a system for engagement and they took out all the moderators, or they never put in any moderators. That's really the problem. Without any meaningful investment and moderation to cut down on the bad stuff, horrible stuff ends up happening and it scales to the whole world, and so you end up with these awful outcomes like Google profiting from pedophiles. I don't know if that's still going on at YouTube. Maybe they changed it in the several years since, but that's the kind of thing that is creating the outcomes that we're talking about in this whole conversation.

44:21 - Damaris (Host)

Right, and so let's get into what can parents do? Okay, because I think no. It can seem overwhelming and depressing, but I also feel like look there, there are things that can be done to address it.

44:40

this doesn't have to be the end of the of the world for you, because, as we've already mentioned, you could throw out your surveillance device or you can just moderate how you use it and then ensure you're moderating how your children use it as well. And so I think about natchi and her parenting style. Sometimes it's like you know, joe clark from, lean on me and she's like give me, you know, a very great disciplinarian, but um, she also wants to be her children's best friend. So, figure, we'll see how that works out for her.

45:18 - Nachi (Host)

You two are the parents.

45:20 - Damaris (Host)

I know, I know, but I'm curious to hear from the parents, and I also, you know, from my own little search, found some tips. But I want to hear from you guys about how do you minimize the role of tech in your children's lives. How can you do this in a positive way?

45:41 - Mark (Guest)

You want to go first Nachi.

45:43 - Nachi (Host)

Well, I can share one thing that I've done. So if those who are iPhone users, I set certain controls parental controls on on our family plan so I'm able to shut down their phone at a certain time so they don't have access to certain apps. I do limit the time on apps that I know and I don't really like, but they tend to go on it, whether it's on their computer, so I try to shut that down. Give limitations on access to specific sites on their phone so, even if they don't have the app, they can't go into that particular website. So I have you know, I'll give an example like Snapchat, not my favorite so I put a limitation of like one minute on their phone so they can't get on the website or the app and that's it.

46:57

I'm sorry, you just won't be on it from your phone or, since they're always using their phone, that's their way of access, so it makes it a little bit more difficult for them to use it. So I'm not going to say that they don't have, because, again, if we remember when we were young, we found ways to get around some of these rules, I think. And one other thing that I did learn and this is through someone I've been following and she talks a lot about this and protecting children and technology and one of the things she shared about Snapchat in particular. Step one is really to have that conversation with your children and, mark, I remember you had mentioned just having those talk with your family so that they kind of understand where you're coming from but, at the same time, understanding okay, we understand that that's what you want to do and you want to use this particular platform. So, coming to a compromise, and I think Snapchat now has sort of like a family plan and I'm still looking into it to figure out Family plan, not a family plan, but it's like a family circle where you can kind of connect and be able to

48:19

no, you're not snapchatting, but you're connected with them I'm so old, I'm like, I'm not snapchatting.

48:25 - Damaris (Host)

I don't even know if that's what they say I'm not snapping with you, okay all right, she takes a more realistic.

48:33 - Nachi (Host)

Yeah, she takes a more realistic approach, like because she comes from her own personal experience. She's a young woman and she talks about her experience. When she got um, she met someone online that she never met face to face and she was literally literally gonna run away from home to meet this man and it wasn't until, like, her mother said something, like it wasn't you know, her mother wasn't trying to stop her, but something, something didn't sit well with her mom and she's and she basically kind of shared with her listen, I don't know what you're going through, but please consider just, you know, staying home, let's talk about it and just something came over her and she decided not to move forward with running away. Like her mother didn't say don't you go away, I'm locked this door, you're not going anywhere. She didn't make it difficult, but she just kind of talked to her like a person, and I know that's sometimes difficult for dominican moms like yeah, I'm like in that scenario.

49:40

I'm like I don't even know what you're talking about because, like, god bless, it, worked out, it, worked out it was realistic because she's like, let's face it, there's just so much going on that sometimes you have to kind of meet them on their level in a way. Yeah you have to come to understand Right, so that they can understand.

50:02 - Damaris (Host)

So they can be receptive.

50:04 - Nachi (Host)

Right. So she does talk a lot about setting these parental controls on your phone, and so I do have that. I set limits screen time on their phone. I turn off the Wi-Fi at my home after a certain time. That's just one of the things that I've done to help out.

50:23 - Damaris (Host)

And what about you, Mark?

50:24 - Mark (Guest)

Well, I wanted to share three tips, and two of them came from Jonathan Haidt, who I mentioned before. Another one is from Jean Twenge, who's an author and researcher on these issues. And so here are the three tips. I've seen them a couple of different places. They're very simple but maybe difficult to enforce. But number one no smartphone before high school.

50:54

They're saying you only give a flip phone when the kid is in elementary and middle school because they can still text you if they need help, they can still make a phone call and so on. But no surveillance phone, no iPhone, no Android surveillance until high school. There's actually an organization called Wait Until Eighth which advocates no smartphone until eighth grade rather than the ninth, and I think it's waituntileighthorg. You can look it up on your favorite non-Google search engine. But no surveillance phone before high school. That's one. Number two is no social media before age 16.

51:36

And this gets to a lot of the research we talked about earlier, that from ages 13 through 15, you know there's and even before age 13, there's, millions of kids on these services and they're being affected in all sorts of ways. They're really, really bad for their mental health. So, understanding that teenagers like social media, maybe there are some positives along the way with social media. At least don't let them start until 16, when they can have a little better discernment about when is the right time. Even then, you know there's still potential harms. But no social media at all until 16. And then one more which is really easy to. Again, these are easy to say, maybe harder to put into practice, but keep the phone out of the bedroom at night, and that's really important because a lot of kids will first thing in the morning, as soon as they wake up, they're on the screen.

52:38

Or the last thing they do before they go to sleep is they're on the screen, and of course, then they have trouble sleeping. And what do they do when they have trouble sleeping? They wake up in the middle of the night. I guess I'll turn on the screen, which makes it harder to fall back asleep, which makes them not sleep well.

52:55

So if you just keep the phone, I think this is a good policy for adults as well. Keep the phone out of the bedroom. It's still there in the living room if you need it, and you can still get up in the morning and get to it, but it's just not the first thing that you look at when you wake up in the morning. You don't want to start your day with a blast of big tech nonsense in your face. Just leave it physically a little bit outside of your bedroom. So those are three no smartphone before high school, no social media before age 16, and keep the phone out of the bedroom at night. I think if every parent was able to pull that off those three tips, as well as yours, nachi, the thoughtful use of settings and family plans and so on we'd be in a much better place.

53:44 - Nachi (Host)

Yeah, and even for those who are trying to limit what their kids download in terms of apps because I know that whole no social media before 16 can be sometimes hard Even there are controls on your, at least for iPhone. I know that you can set in terms of your child would need to ask permission to download apps.

54:10 - Mark (Guest)

So that's right.

54:11 - Nachi (Host)

Yeah, so if that is something that you're considering and you're looking into, know that there is a feature on your iPhone that you can make sure that your children are asking permission to download apps on their phone.

54:43 - Damaris (Host)

And one thing I wanted to add because you guys took all of my tips, thank you is that this one is easy. They mentioned turn off notifications, which is something that I do anyway, and I think you do too, nachi. So without the notifications, I only then go to the app when I have the time to go into it, versus I'm notified and I feel compelled to go into it because, oh my God. Susie said what who cares? I don't. So it works for adults, but it's also great for kids, because then they're just not distracted as much.

55:07

But, nonetheless, I think there were really great tips there for the children, and, I think, plenty for parents to do for themselves too, or guardians, whoever in your life. But the point is that, look, we want this to be a safe space for children and we need to protect our kids at all costs, and we cannot rely on big tech companies to do that, because they never will. What's important to them is making money, and that's just what we need to accept. There's no altruistic, you know goal for them. How do you make money? It's not going to work.

55:43

So, the math doesn't math guys Otherwise. But once you accept that, then you can approach your engagement with these platforms in a much more sensible way and there's no despair because you know exactly what you're going to get in return. So I hope our listeners enjoyed this episode, because I did, and as always, I'm learning from Mark and reminding myself to get off of Google and trying in small different ways. It is hard, it is it is Little by little.

56:16

Yes, yes. So we got to try in however way we can. And again, there's it's a judgment-free zone. So do what you can. Start off small steps, take small bites, don't become overwhelmed, but you know what's out there, and awareness is the first step. Gi Joe says it all the time. Right, no one is half the battle guys. Yes, it is. That said, let's just close out, like we always do, and just remind our listeners that there's a lot of noise out there, but our message is consistent Don't get distracted by the smoke and mirrors, tune out the noise, focus on your divine purpose in life and vibrate higher to elevate your frequency. And always, thank you for listening. So, that said, don't forget to subscribe to our channel and follow us on Instagram, tiktok and Twitter at I'm not yelling underscore and we look forward to talking next time. Bye.